tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post2756485257933970232..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: Scene and unsceneUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-2808507342265298692010-03-31T10:09:48.621-07:002010-03-31T10:09:48.621-07:00Did a lot of thinking about this post last night, ...Did a lot of thinking about this post last night, and wow, it looks like I have a lot of comments to read over today.<br /><br />I think in some genres, backstory is okay as long as it is delivered in an interesting way. Your method of writing mostly scenes is a good one for those of us who rely to heavily on exposition, namely, moi. <br /><br />Thanks for such a great discussion.Tere Kirklandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13562750950130316280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-35207300721414203512010-03-31T08:58:46.341-07:002010-03-31T08:58:46.341-07:00Denver: I think you are limiting what a scene is, ...Denver: I think you are limiting what a scene is, and I also would disagree with the assumption of a camera viewpoint. A literary scene is in prose and is not "seen" or directly "shown" at all, and a great lot of scene content can well be non-visual: the beating of a character's heart, the smells of cooking, a sense of anticipation or relief. These are all non-visual sensations that are common in prose and concede nothing to the idea of a camera.<br /><br />I'd also argue that yes, your two examples are in fact just scenes. A scene viewed from five points of view is, from a writer's perspective, five written scenes. Also, the answer to "can memory be best evoked by a scene of action?" may well be yes. See Proust for a few thousand pages of memory-as-scene. I have nowhere argued against digressions within scenes; I do however claim that scene is an excellent framing device for narrative discourse.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-87550773821656087502010-03-31T08:44:49.349-07:002010-03-31T08:44:49.349-07:00I don't think that writing in scenes has a giv...I don't think that writing in scenes has a given correlation to script writing. Scripts are mainly dialogue. Scant direction is given toward scene settings, and quite often a script will not include extensive direction on character motivation and movement; that is left to the director and/or actors. Scene settings in a script are usually very direct, and not written in a form that would be suitable for narrative prose. <br /><br />Structuring a novel in scenes is a more a means for evaluating the plotting and pacing at a macro level.Rick Daleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05173516899130463413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-2160383491948282652010-03-31T08:35:55.784-07:002010-03-31T08:35:55.784-07:00I think that scene writing is essentially writing ...I think that scene writing is essentially writing a kind of script because it assumes a camera viewpoint. <br /><br />What is a scene, after all? It is action witnessed from a single point of view, in a specific location, in a specific moment in time. It's high point is some sort of change in the situation the character is facing. <br /><br />But the prose writer has more options than the simple camera view point it would seem. And why does a highly controlled viewpoint make for interesting fiction writing? <br /><br />For example, a book could deal with a single scene experienced from all the points of view. <br /><br />Indeed, one could write a novel that deals with an instant in time, the character drinking coffee at a coffee house and being reminded of his entire life. <br /><br />You might argue that both examples above require scenes, but is memory, in the second instance, a scene, or more precisely, can memory be best evoked by a scene of action? Perhaps memory is a system of images or symbols?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-8379630702898924432010-03-30T20:19:03.742-07:002010-03-30T20:19:03.742-07:00Great post...and very timely. I've been tryin...Great post...and very timely. I've been trying to teach my ten year old about the basics of writing. Last week we worked on inciting incidents and today we started our discussion on exposition.Veronica and Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18085407071543219089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-46354260694047547002010-03-30T18:35:02.424-07:002010-03-30T18:35:02.424-07:00I used to have a serious problem with free form wr...I used to have a serious problem with free form writing, where I would go on and on about what was going on in a character's head, detailing their struggles. Then I realized it was super boring. I still love good narration but in small doses.Katiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06851403823244758904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-74526055125737051052010-03-30T16:35:57.445-07:002010-03-30T16:35:57.445-07:00I like backstory as long as it moves the story for...I like backstory as long as it moves the story forward. That sound strange, but you can move a story forward by giving the reader understanding of why a character is the way they are. You don't have to do a data dump to accomplish this, just a sentence or two now and again.Elizabeth McKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08769477449767726442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-75060294349653776552010-03-30T14:48:34.482-07:002010-03-30T14:48:34.482-07:00Jamie's comment just made me hungry.Jamie's comment just made me hungry.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-54927973694039285702010-03-30T14:46:42.099-07:002010-03-30T14:46:42.099-07:00As a reader, I can handle a few paragraphs of back...As a reader, I can handle a few paragraphs of back story and/or exposition at a time. Then I want more action/dialogue. I get bored easily, so while I like having it there, I want it dribbled like frosting. (I'm craving cinnamon rolls, for some reason...) <br /><br />As a writer, I try to dribble little swirls of back story and exposition here and there as the action moves forward. I only write in scenes - if it doesn't fit in one scene or another, it doesn't go in. A scene for me must involve some sort of change that drives the plot forward, and generally takes place all in one setting/time, and one POV. Once the change occurs (or shortly after), I start a new scene.Jamie D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05486427517423813962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-13237875646030850842010-03-30T14:32:26.651-07:002010-03-30T14:32:26.651-07:00Andrew: No, that is exposition. It's just dram...Andrew: No, that is exposition. It's just dramatized. I'm trying to avoid freestanding infodumps, though I also think backstory of any kind should be kept to a minimum.<br /><br />Except for in those stories where it shouldn't, which is not most stories.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-72474572859533212782010-03-30T14:25:16.159-07:002010-03-30T14:25:16.159-07:00Funny you should mention this. I've been writi...Funny you should mention this. I've been writing a whole series of posts about Scene. Everything I write is scenes.<br />Anyways, don't confuse backstory with exposition. <br />You can have a scene where backstory is revealed.<br />A: Hey, that's a kewl necklace.<br />B: Yeah, my dad gave it to me.<br />A: I wish my dad would give me stuff like that.<br />B: I wish my dad was still alive.<br /><br />See? Backstory, all packaged up without a hint of exposition.<br /><br />I usually leave to much backstory out, so people get confused and I wind up dripping it back in here and there as needed.Andrew Rosenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-84692010502686944312010-03-30T14:09:11.694-07:002010-03-30T14:09:11.694-07:00Rick: You get the bonus! I have not fallen in love...Rick: You get the bonus! I have not fallen in love with Chabon's writing, though.<br /><br />All: I am not decrying backstory so much as I am trying to avoid infodumps am playing with ways to structure my narrative. As I said to Genie today and wrote last week, I wrap backstory within scenes. Also, as I said today, I had to put down a "novel" last night because there was no drama, just page after page of narrative summary and history and none of the characters came alive for me.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-38444416589354239282010-03-30T14:04:48.975-07:002010-03-30T14:04:48.975-07:00Denver Bibliophile: You say, "When you focus ...Denver Bibliophile: You say, "When you focus so much on scene, you're moving toward writing a kind of script rather than a novel." Can you expand on this? It's an interesting claim even if I find it doubtful on its face.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-89713620592465058812010-03-30T14:02:17.592-07:002010-03-30T14:02:17.592-07:00Do you write in scenes?
Yes. I write the outline...<i>Do you write in scenes?</i><br /><br />Yes. I write the outline as a list of scenes, no formal titles just a brief description of the main plot point in that scene. If I move to a different character's POV in third person limited, I also identify that character. <br /><br /><i>Do you know a scene when you see one?</i> <br /><br />Most of the time, but I don't think I ever intentionally go looking for them when I read.<br /><br /><i>Can you take sections of exposition or narrative summary that stop the momentum of the story and make them into dramatized scenes?</i> <br /><br />It all depends on how its done. I recently read THE AMAZING ADVENTURES OF CAVALIER AND CLAY, and it starts in present time, with one character (Clay) as primary focus and a second character (Kavalier) is introduced. For the next chapters (52 pages) it delves into Kavalier's backstory. There is no set up for it, not part of a conversation, it just goes there. Then it comes back to present (although at that point there is a section break).<br /><br />I mention this because a) I really like Michael Chabon's writing, and b) so did the Pulitzer committe, for this book. Not that I am trying to put myself on the level of the Pulitzer committee.<br /><br />It broke the forward momentum of the story, but as a section of backstory / exposition it was still told in an active, forward moving voice, i.e. it did not back-peddle within itself.<br /><br /><i>Bonus questions: Do you think this is important, or are you willing--as a reader--to let writers hand you pages of backstory?</i> <br /><br />See prior response. It all depends on how it is done. Do I still get the bonus?Rick Daleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05173516899130463413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-10240607786962567642010-03-30T13:15:06.546-07:002010-03-30T13:15:06.546-07:00I only ever write in scenes. It's all I know, ...I only ever write in scenes. It's all I know, really. It's the flash fiction specialization, I think. I'm not sure I even know how to do transitions, come to think of it.<br /><br />This may be a detriment in the novel-writing process, but I can always add transitions later if need be. (At least, that's what I'm telling myself....)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-38705716136725941432010-03-30T12:37:42.429-07:002010-03-30T12:37:42.429-07:00I like backstory; but I'm nosey about people a...I like backstory; but I'm nosey about people anyways. However, even I can get tired of it if it doesn't seem to do anything for either the character's motivations or the overall plot.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure I recognize a scene when I see it, and I try to write my story in scenes and dialogue; but because I like a bit more background on characters than most, I do slip in exposition. Usually in a flashback - never in a dream - but occasionally in a narrative. I only do narrative when the backstory needs to be quick and is extremely relevant to the action of the moment.<br /><br />I got way carried away in my third novel - because by then I knew everything about my continuing characters - and in my revision I know I'm going to have to cut a lot of backstory and focus more on the current scenes. <br /><br />See it over there, hidden under a big pile of junk?<br /><br />......dholedolorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08715849844092553699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-76050128114531540212010-03-30T12:11:26.651-07:002010-03-30T12:11:26.651-07:00When you focus so much on scene, you're moving...When you focus so much on scene, you're moving toward writing a kind of script rather than a novel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-2796253840885792702010-03-30T12:10:18.973-07:002010-03-30T12:10:18.973-07:00Genie: That's exactly what I am trying to do b...Genie: That's exactly what I am trying to do by presenting everything in scenes. I want to get the reader's interest in the story-in-progress and make them curious about the larger story world. But all of that has to come first, before any backstory. I'm using a nested structure that goes like this:<br /><br />1. Begin dramatic action<br />2. Explain background<br />3. Resolve dramatic action<br /><br />That's the structure of the whole book. It's also the structure of the five acts of the story, and of each chapter in the acts, and of each scene within the chapters. So I allow myself backstory and history and description and all of that, but only if it's wrapped up in a meaningul dramatic scene.<br /><br />I'm not really doing this because I want to fit some formula an agent or editor has given me. Mostly, it's hard work and a challenge and those are the sorts of things that are fun for me when I write. Setting challenges and seeing if I can pull them off.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-51051150580756598672010-03-30T11:35:20.189-07:002010-03-30T11:35:20.189-07:00I agree with many of the above comments saying tha...I agree with many of the above comments saying that some backstory can be a good thing, as long as it's not too much and it's done well. <br /><br />I really like a bit of backstory when I've been reading a book, and the present action has piqued my curiosity about a character's past without telling me what happened. If there is enough tension built up that makes me guess about a really interesting piece of background information, then I'll devour it when it's finally revealed. <br /><br />I think it's a matter of making the reader care first--making the reader ready for the backstory and interested in it before it's presented, so it's not just jammed in there for future reference.Jean Michelle Miernikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08971882597502010124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-25853717357143607312010-03-30T11:23:43.381-07:002010-03-30T11:23:43.381-07:00I have two thoughts on the subject. First, as a re...I have two thoughts on the subject. First, as a reader, I think exposition and back story can be thoroughly entertaining if they are done well. So, in that sense, I don't think it's a problem at all. <br /><br />But, there's another term that also comes to mind when I write. Inescapable. I think when you are writing in scenes, you have a much higher chance of writing inescapable fiction. That's material when the reader forgets that he or she is reading. The person is so immersed in the story that they are trapped in it. I think only scenes can do this.<br /><br />So, while both are okay, I think good exposition has the power to entertain just as a good scene does. But a good scene also has the potential to be inescapable.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-26449495902063780952010-03-30T11:17:08.656-07:002010-03-30T11:17:08.656-07:00Scott,
On the subject of backstory: I usually don&...Scott,<br />On the subject of backstory: I usually don't mind some backstory, but when backstory goes on for pages and pages then I skip it. A little backstory here or there has never bothered me.About Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10011023963327391019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-77171078059037805512010-03-30T11:01:41.931-07:002010-03-30T11:01:41.931-07:00You raise an interesting point, Scott. I think tha...You raise an interesting point, Scott. I think that yes, I know scenes, and yes, I write in scenes (I try to loosely follow the scene --> reaction scene structure), but no, I don't think back story/ exposition needs to disappear completely. I think it can be too jarring to have scenes only, as the reader may lose a sense of flow or time by jumping around. <br /><br />It depends on the genre, too, I think. In fantasy/ sci-fi, it's more tolerated than in commercial or contemporary, because there's world-building that needs to be done. But I do agree that too much can force a reader to put a book down, and no writer wants that to happen to theirs.L. T. Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12448176940211118898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-32228721154486926272010-03-30T10:45:18.311-07:002010-03-30T10:45:18.311-07:00Do you write in scenes?
I absolutely write in sce...<b>Do you write in scenes?</b><br /><br />I absolutely write in scenes. My new work is entirely made of scenes, although there is exposition thrown into some of that action. It's the narrative voice I'm using that does that. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I think, either way, it works for now. <br /><br /><b>Do you know a scene when you see one?</b><br /><br />I think I do. I also think that it's okay, during the action of a scene, to introduce back story through dialogue or thoughts. If it's moving the story forward, I don't think it matters much.<br /><br /><b>Can you take sections of exposition or narrative summary that stop the momentum of the story and make them into dramatized scenes?</b><br /><br />I may do this with the beginning of my new novella, make the exposition at the front more scenes than what it is. But I kind of like the exposition feel - it works with the back story people already know, and it sets a certain tone I like.<br /><br /><b>Do you think this is important, or are you willing--as a reader--to let writers hand you pages of backstory?</b><br /><br />Yes, absolutely, if it's done well. Banana Yoshimoto had some exposition in Kitchen, and it worked fine for me, moved the story along past what we didn't really need to see in scenes.<br /><br />And I don't think those readers exist, either. It's all a ploy to scare us into some sort of submission. Scott, write the story how YOU want it, not what you think people want or expect. That's so much easier said than done, I know.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-54270398802010121792010-03-30T10:33:14.823-07:002010-03-30T10:33:14.823-07:00susiej: Yeah, I think that's the thing. I love...susiej: Yeah, I think that's the thing. I love history and I read a lot of nonfiction and biographies and I love doing the research for my books. But most people just want us to tell them a story. They don't want to read our research.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-27995786054631056902010-03-30T10:24:37.536-07:002010-03-30T10:24:37.536-07:00I hear ya Scott. I actually like backstory. I pour...I hear ya Scott. I actually like backstory. I poured over every one of the footnotes in Jonathon Strange and Mr. Norrell. Some of the stuff in there was even more interesting than the present story. <br /><br />And Tolkien's Appendixes: I cross check as I read. I want to know the story behind every old battlefield, barrow etc. I seem pefectly capable of stopping, and then picking and getting immersed in the story again. But, I have learned (been told by many agents) that most people do not like this. Must be kith and kin to my love of history.sbjameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06986950185596914217noreply@blogger.com