tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post4894983762629367281..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: Plot and Premise Are Not StoryUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-63116944037835270332010-01-15T18:04:56.590-08:002010-01-15T18:04:56.590-08:00Scott. Chill. I was just teasing. I'm sure you...Scott. Chill. I was just teasing. I'm sure you'll be glad when this discussion is over, eh? We still love you. I'll send my little sort of story in the next couple of days. No worries.lotusgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663641163048764869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-91333498893931813332010-01-15T17:04:08.790-08:002010-01-15T17:04:08.790-08:00I wish I hadn't been working at work today and...I wish I hadn't been working at work today and could've jumped in sooner.<br /><br />I wonder if "Story" could be the "meaning of life/ah ha!" moment that you take away from it. I don't mean theme or moral here. I just mean, when you read something really great, and it makes you stop reading and look up and think, "Holy crap."<br /><br />For example, after I've read an amazing book and am telling someone about it, I'll explain what the plot is, but what I really want to get across is, I guess, the "feeling" the book gave me. I don't know. Somehow I want to point out all the "life realizations" the book made me realize either again or for the first time.<br /><br />Oh, and I feel like I'm a pretty good reader who is also skilled as taking my writing brain out of the reading, but there is no way I could ever guess how a writer wrote a novel. In fact, I've read lots of books about novelists who talk about their stories, and I'm usually shocked when I hear how the story began.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm gonna gather up some of my writing books to see if they explain story. I'll report back later.Annie Loudenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008836459417708235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-52788311971150706612010-01-15T15:46:03.861-08:002010-01-15T15:46:03.861-08:00Weighing in here to agree with those who feel that...Weighing in here to agree with those who feel that story is a combination of things. These are the things I think make up Story (with a capital S):<br /><br />Idea<br />Character<br />Setting<br />Problem<br />Plot<br />Solution<br />Theme<br />Voice<br /><br />(This is what I teach my elementary writing students.)<br /><br />I think that in the case of Story,<br />the whole is greater that the sum of its parts. There is a magic that exists between the elements that, when combined correctly, create something intangible.<br /><br /><br />As a Storyteller (and I am speaking here not as a writer, but as an actual professional oral storyteller), I tell the whole Story, not just the plot, the character, the setting...everything. <br /><br />So, that's what I think.<br /><br />Wish I could come by more often...but, alas, the day job...<br /><br />Shelleystoryqueenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07039684494823420722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-33376051756537846432010-01-15T13:49:08.011-08:002010-01-15T13:49:08.011-08:00It's a date!It's a date!scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-83449411710255106112010-01-15T13:37:58.906-08:002010-01-15T13:37:58.906-08:00Perhaps we should have this conversation again in ...Perhaps we should have this conversation again in ten years so that we can realize that both of us are wrong.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-10721563930006778132010-01-15T13:36:33.541-08:002010-01-15T13:36:33.541-08:00Davin: Alas, we're not really on the same page...Davin: Alas, we're not really on the same page. <i>there are a bunch of different fundamental types of stories and a bunch of fundamentally different ways of understanding stories and I'm just now figuring out that I have a certain individual way of undertanding stories and I mistake that individual understanding for a universal</i> is a possibility, yes. I don't believe it, though. But I've had lunch, and now I'm going to focus on my day job.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-67059589421183069992010-01-15T12:55:10.175-08:002010-01-15T12:55:10.175-08:00I had lunch!
Scott, I think with your last comme...I had lunch! <br /><br />Scott, I think with your last comments we are on the same page. I don't think this entire discussion has been a difference in semantics, but I think it is now. Or at least different levels of generalization.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-85436862356006849022010-01-15T12:38:17.369-08:002010-01-15T12:38:17.369-08:00Or, you know, it's just that really there are ...Or, you know, it's just that really there <i>are</i> a bunch of different fundamental types of stories and a bunch of fundamentally different ways of understanding stories and I'm just now figuring out that I have a certain individual way of undertanding stories and I mistake that individual understanding for a universal. It's happened before when I've generalized from my own experience. Say, is it lunch time already? Gotta go!scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-70773007528141269102010-01-15T12:05:32.229-08:002010-01-15T12:05:32.229-08:00Davin: Here's the real thing, I think. When yo...Davin: Here's the real thing, I think. When you were working on "Rooster," no matter what your process, you were trying to come up with something that you thought was a story, right? Never mind how you got there; you kept working at finding a story until you found one, yes?<br /><br />How did you know when you had? How did you tell the difference between "not story" and "story" and was it simply a matter of having Nui steal a neighbor's grapefruit as opposed to stealing a neighbor's apple?<br /><br />And, once you got there, process aside, how is that story fundamentally different than any other story? How does it operate differently? Have you invented a new form of causation? Have you invented a new form of narrative? Or have you sculpted your narrative into a shape you recognize as a story? I argue that you have done this latter thing, and that there is a shape you may not be able to describe but you know it when you see it and you miss it when it's not there and that this shape, which maybe is invisible, is what a <i>story</i> is and it is a separate thing from setting. Finding the setting allowed you to find the shape, the story. Distinguish between "Rooster" and "a story." <br /><br />"Rooster" is an instance of Story.<br /><br />"Hamlet" is an instance of Story.<br /><br />Not all Story == "Rooster".<br /><br />Not all Story == "Hamlet".<br /><br />Define Story for all instance of Story. I think it's possible, and not in a "too vague to be meaningful" way.<br /><br />Or, don't. Go have lunch instead; it'll be better for you.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-61205081990716613812010-01-15T11:59:36.902-08:002010-01-15T11:59:36.902-08:00Scott: First off, don't be so hard on yoursel...Scott: First off, don't be so hard on yourself. I seriously doubt anyone here is taking this personally, and if they are, they need to get a clue.<br /><br />Second, I still disagree that the question asked matters. Only the answer matters. You can have a story that consists of answering something all by itself, and it will still be a story. You cannot however, have just a question.<br /><br />For example, my 11 year old was recently telling me the story of his hand-drawn artwork. He explained that this supervillain was plaguing a town, and the people had magic defenses to keep him at bay. There's of course more to it, but the point is that he didn't ask the question and then answer it with a story. He just told the story. Now you might argue that the question is inherent, but I disagree. I don't think we have to ask the question "what if" or "why" in order to create a story. We can just create something that isn't necessarily intended to ask ANY questions. It's just a story. You might see questions (and answers) in the story, but that doesn't mean the story came out of asking those questions.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823808700523297184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-19341721045292724062010-01-15T11:54:22.023-08:002010-01-15T11:54:22.023-08:00Scott, I'll say that your last comment befuddl...Scott, I'll say that your last comment befuddled me. Not as a criticism to you, but more to say that I'm getting lost. Somehow, though, I feel like the key word in what you said about Michelle's book is "trying." She was trying to keep the story the same. I'm able to tell my Rooster story in another locale other than the poverty-stricken southern Thailand fishing town that it is in. Instead of the elaborate cremation ceremony, I could have a standard American funeral. But, I did not have the story before I set it in Thailand. My story emerged because I put it in Thailand. In my view of the world, my character changed because of how he started and who he was. Now that I have the story, I can transplant it, but I did not have the story when I started writing. And, I would argue that if I started in a different place, I would have written a different story. If my character ran away from home and ended up in a hippie camp, he might have been surrounded by people who forced him to talk about his feelings. The conflict with his brother might have ended and the story could have been about him starting a shirt-dying business. And, I'm being totally serious that I am THAT clueless about where the story will end when I start to write it, at least with that story. Bread is a different matter. That story, beginning, middle and end was set before I started writing. Then, I ended up picking a location, and really any location would do. But with Rooster, I did not have a beginning, middle, and end, and the setting informed that. It was like a chain reaction of events all from that starting point, with no thought on my part about whether or not it was satisfying. The same thing with my story "Red Man, Blue Man," which I remember you liking. That story--I now believe there is one, formed as this same chain reaction, beginning to end.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-10192731814376905132010-01-15T11:51:05.292-08:002010-01-15T11:51:05.292-08:00Mr. Bailey, you've said it yourself, you'r...Mr. Bailey, you've said it yourself, you're reading the Paddington Bear books...you've been discussing story as an adult. I think you need to take a break and read more children's lit. to find the answer to your questions. Sometimes even the simplest things can explain the biggest issues.Anne Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816355522284492131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-24567266766839267032010-01-15T11:36:09.539-08:002010-01-15T11:36:09.539-08:00Lois: Oh, me oh my. I'm not trying to discuss ...Lois: Oh, me oh my. I'm not trying to discuss anything like values here. Somewhere in "Twilight," I assume, there's a real story that resonates with real people or it wouldn't be so successful. I don't think people are really caught up in the vampire trappings or the glories of Forks, WA. That's just frosting. I'm reading the Paddington Bear books, you know. I never read them as a child and they're really funny and true about humanity. It's not all Hemingway and Ovid at my house. I'm trying to be as precise in my language here as I can be, and I think that's contributing to the way I currently sound like an asshat. But really, I'm a harmless old man who has lately been sitting up and saying, "You know what? I think we're wrong when we talk about what a story is and we should think about that." I'm afraid people are construing my comments as "You don't know how to write and your stories must really suck." For some people that's likely true, but probably not for the fine folks who read this blog. I am also trying to find out if I know what I think I know, or if I'm simply unaware of my own foolishness. Hard to say. But I do wish I'd shut the hell up.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-18562137791671432992010-01-15T11:28:33.764-08:002010-01-15T11:28:33.764-08:00Davin: Yes, but the thing is, the narrative you pr...Davin: Yes, but the thing is, the narrative you produce isn't the same thing as the story. That's my point. Michelle threw away most of "Monarch" and rewrote it from scratch. She was still trying to tell the same story. The success or failure of her narrative is not the same thing as how well-formed her story is. The reception of the novel will be determined by both, of course. But Michelle hasn't changed the story; she's changed the way she presented it.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-58735335347600616642010-01-15T11:22:50.300-08:002010-01-15T11:22:50.300-08:00Oh boy. Are you sure you want to read/sample my sp...Oh boy. Are you sure you want to read/sample my sparkly-ish non-vampire drivel story or possibly not story?lotusgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663641163048764869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-27045586504779452162010-01-15T11:20:22.603-08:002010-01-15T11:20:22.603-08:00Eric: But the story would both ask and answer the ...Eric: But the story would both ask and answer the question, yes? Which is what, I think, Anne said this morning. And I think someone said that yesterday. I think. Headache now.<br /><br />I also think there's a real and important difference between asking "how did X come to be?" and "what would happen if X were true?" Certainly the latter can be used to answer the former. And vice versa. So huh. Gets us nowhere.<br /><br />I don't mean to seem argumentative here these last couple of days. But I do find myself disagreeing strongly of late with a lot of common statements about storytelling. I'd like to believe that I feel this way because of a growing awareness of something real rather than a growing senility or middle-aged grumpiness.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-74778195984530582582010-01-15T11:18:40.301-08:002010-01-15T11:18:40.301-08:00I'm okay with the thought that knowledge has m...I'm okay with the thought that knowledge has more influence and process, but process is still in there somewhere. I don't think it can be totally replaced from the start of a project to the finished product unless you really go back to zero and start with new everything.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-26254961844109159672010-01-15T11:10:19.947-08:002010-01-15T11:10:19.947-08:00Scott: you are correct except that it isn't t...Scott: you are correct except that it isn't the question asked that provides the story. It's the answer. So asking why it got dark doesn't create the story. It is how the first person (who was asked that question) answered the story that created the first fictional account (assuming that our first people weren't omniscient, heh heh).Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823808700523297184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-87623157149790910702010-01-15T11:05:38.042-08:002010-01-15T11:05:38.042-08:00Nevets: Maybe the meaning of the event more than t...Nevets: Maybe the meaning of the event more than the idea of the event, if that's even a different thing?scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-4696950789625957242010-01-15T11:03:53.856-08:002010-01-15T11:03:53.856-08:00Eric: You're right, but you're also wrong....Eric: You're right, but you're also wrong. Likely the first stories really really came by answering questions: "why does it get dark?" "what is lightning?" and some creative folks started making stuff up to answer those questions, and suddenly we have myths. I think "what is that bright disk in the sky?" came before "what if the sun were a god riding a chariot across the sky?"<br /><br />Davin: Maybe. The thing is, my "outlining" includes a whole lot of "making it up as I go along." Almost every word of the story is improvised; I just improvise in a certain direction and I constantly surprise myself. I know how the story ends and have some ideas about how things got that way. Remember <a href="http://scottgfbailey.blogspot.com/2009/10/outlining-part-1.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>? That's still my outline. I never really got much past the list of chapter titles stage. Before I write a chapter or a scene, if I'm stuck, I'll make some notes--maybe even a few pages of notes--but I've got very little knowledge of any story specifics or details until I'm sitting there with pen in hand, trying to imagine the next scene.<br /><br />And yes, your narrative is what it is because of how you write on a day-to-day basis. But only to a point. Do you not also have an awareness of storytelling that exists even when you're not sitting at your computer? A sense that "this works, but this doesn't" that you can tap into when you're thinking about your novel in an abstract way, or when you're thinking about someone else's story? Is the way you think about other people's stories controlled by how you write without outlining? I am saying that this knowledge is what you write out of and it has more influence on you than process. Same with me.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-26340120767069488712010-01-15T10:57:59.139-08:002010-01-15T10:57:59.139-08:00Regarding "Scott's last part", I thi...Regarding "Scott's last part", I think that the earliest story writers were probably writing non-fiction. I think that's okay, and they can still be stories--my view of stories anyway. But, there's also an interpretation step in there, right? There's a shaping that must take place. If something unexplainable happened, humans somehow tried to make sense of it. I think stories are a reflection of real life, but they are a synthesized reflection, which to me means that there can be a different synthesis and a different story. <br /><br />Anyway, not to stop this discussion, because it is still interesting to me, but I want to say thank you to everyone who has been willing to jump in to this over the last few days. It might all be a waste of time, I honestly don't know. But, I do feel like it's valuable, even if the value doesn't hit us until much later.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-13831873562971532102010-01-15T10:56:56.992-08:002010-01-15T10:56:56.992-08:00I would argue, Scott, that what makes something me...I would argue, Scott, that what makes something memorable enough for folks to retell is more idea than it is event.<br /><br />It's not, "Jacob stuck his head in a watermelon." It's, "It was funny when Jacob stuck his head in a watermelon," and maybe even, "It was funny when Jacbo stuck his head in a watermelon because his head already looks like one." That's what sticks and makes it worth telling.C. N. Nevetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375714948653196993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-71172387625076303142010-01-15T10:49:35.460-08:002010-01-15T10:49:35.460-08:00Your last point sounds very valid.
As for the kn...Your last point sounds very valid. <br /><br />As for the knowledge versus process idea, for me, I'll say that, while knowledge has much to do with it, I can't escape the process. I don't think this is necessarily the best example because you make good use of your outline and don't get locked into it, but if you wrote Cocke & Bull without the outline, starting instead with different ramblings and scenes the way I have started Bread, I think you would have a different finished version of your book than you will now. Little discoveries you make along the rambling way will reveal different things about the story that you might not find the outlining way. Just like I will not see things that I might see if I were to outline first.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-44768046511127916552010-01-15T10:47:40.437-08:002010-01-15T10:47:40.437-08:00I'm sorry Scott, but I have to call you on tha...I'm sorry Scott, but I have to call you on that last part. Obviously the first writers couldn't have seen something and decided to relate it to someone else. Otherwise we'd be surrounded by dragons, elves, ghosts, and vampires (to name a few). So way back (however far you want to go), a human mind came up with a supposition, expanded on it, and the first fictional story was created. Someone HAD to start with a "what-if" premise in order to begin, since there wasn't anything "real" for them to observe. The stories you are referring to would be more akin to non-fictional retelling of an occurrence, as opposed to a "story".Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823808700523297184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-35465461168051712202010-01-15T10:34:08.112-08:002010-01-15T10:34:08.112-08:00Davin: I totally understand that. My first novel, ...Davin: I totally understand that. My first novel, which sits buried in a drawer as a first draft, would have to be completely rewritten--not just revised--in order for it to be a well-formed story. But I think now we're talking about experience and knowledge of craft rather than process, aren't we?<br /><br />My WIP "Cocke & Bull" is going to be a very different novel from "Horatio," but that's because I'm a better writer, not because of any difference is process. I've learned lessons about storytelling and am trying different ideas about what you can do in a narrative, but my way of working, of getting the words onto the page, are the same. It's the same way I wrote the second half of my first (bad) novel.<br /><br />I'm also going to loop back and (predictably at this stage) disagree with you about the first writers. I don't think at all that they began with a "what if" premise. I think they witnessed something and thought it worth remembering and telling to others, who told it to still others with embellishments and changes to give it more meaning to themselves and the new audiences. I think real stories are grounded in truth, in real life, no matter how we dress them up. We can write entertainments that have nothing to do with real life, but I hesitate to call those stories and I doubt any of them have cultural staying power.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.com