tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post7320798391942242862..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: You Guessed WrongUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-16002804565631872022010-02-27T09:24:02.617-08:002010-02-27T09:24:02.617-08:00MG: I LOVE it when that happens! That happens to m...<b>MG:</b> I LOVE it when that happens! That happens to me all the time, and I'm always amazed at how things connect themselves in my story that I didn't intend. That's usually the best stuff I write - what I don't carefully plan. :)<br /><br /><b>KG:</b> Yep, exactly! And yes, my teacher was right, too. Definitely the great thing about layers!Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-41496355128753452382010-02-27T09:22:14.082-08:002010-02-27T09:22:14.082-08:00Nisa: I agree with you - and that is one of the re...<b>Nisa:</b> I agree with you - and that is one of the reasons I write. When I could finally accept that my writing would be viewed differently than what I intended, it suddenly became more exciting!<br /><br /><b>Victoria:</b> Fantastic! Thank you for explaining that scene. I'd forgotten the exact order of it all! Hmm, interesting about Emily helping with that. :)<br /><br /><b>Lois:</b> Okay, I totally forgot that you were a teacher!Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-75696445207834308202010-02-26T23:42:19.459-08:002010-02-26T23:42:19.459-08:00It seems I've lucked out regarding high school...It seems I've lucked out regarding high school English classes; my teacher (who I also had last year) often begins the first literary analysis discussion of a semester by telling us that a key quality of literature is multiplicity of meaning, so no interpretation is ever "wrong" if it has basis in the text. So, regarding that tree, your opinion is right, your silly teacher's opinion was right, and I can add without contradiction that something splitting in two when Jane and Rochester get engaged also represents the falsity of the attempted marriage, and symbolically foreshadows their subsequent separation, and...KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06072778234306901242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-89133477794448007482010-02-26T14:19:06.007-08:002010-02-26T14:19:06.007-08:00I'm taking a course in short fiction. This wee...I'm taking a course in short fiction. This week's assignment was to write a 4-page story having something to do with food. I wrote it Tuesday afternoon, set it aside and reread it Thursday. Holy cow, it was full of symbolism--symbolism that I hadn't noticed or intended in the first draft. I'm guessing that as we write we tend to unconsciously tap into symbolic imagery and archetypes.MG Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03584010470283038023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-82271910615879668322010-02-26T12:15:02.967-08:002010-02-26T12:15:02.967-08:00I was a teacher. (If you forget.) I'm glad to ...I was a teacher. (If you forget.) I'm glad to be writing now. I have a picture of you on my blog today. Heehee.lotusgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663641163048764869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-58850084452288303902010-02-26T10:29:02.613-08:002010-02-26T10:29:02.613-08:00I like to read Jane Eyre as if Emily had written i...I like to read Jane Eyre as if Emily had written it. (I personally suspect she had a large hand in it---I mean, look at the books Charlotte wrote after Emily died.) What did the blasted chestnut really mean, Andrew? It meant don't get engaged without asking your intended who's living in their attic!<br /><br />Emily was full of common sense stuff like that. Even 160 years later, it's still sound engagement advice.<br /><br />Just so you all know, that happened during the scene in which Rochester declares his passion for Jane. It's where he follows her to the garden after he's announced his engagement to Blanche to freak Jane out. He catches her by the chestnut and gives her some b.s. speech about his great love and how Jane will have to leave him when he gets married, then says, "Psyche! I really mean you!" She promises to marry him, it starts to rain, and they run in the house and scandalize the housekeeper with their intimacy. The next morning Jane discovers the chestnut tree has been split by lightning in the night.<br /><br />I suspect Charlotte actually used it for tension (Jaws theme music) and nothing more. But of course anything can be a symbol to the right reader. ALL good literature is layered.Victoria Mixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14827327915488642631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-84326331896438383692010-02-26T07:42:22.608-08:002010-02-26T07:42:22.608-08:00You are so right! The beauty of writing is that ea...You are so right! The beauty of writing is that each reader will get something unique and new out of it depending on their experiences. Nice post!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08616276555920544920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-9767312127239459832010-02-25T21:29:59.950-08:002010-02-25T21:29:59.950-08:00FP: Oh, I agree with you that creators become beho...<b>FP:</b> Oh, I agree with you that creators become beholders of their own work. They have to, in my opinion. I read some of my earlier works that I've forgotten about, and it's so much fun to read it with a new eye, as if I wasn't the one who wrote it.<br /><br />I carefully craft my symbolism, but yes, I've had many experiences where readers point out things I never intended to do. It's kind of fun.<br /><br /><b>Tess:</b> That's great that your husband picked up on something like that! It's fun to see things you didn't mean - it always makes me feel smart. :)<br /><br /><b>Chuck:</b> I'll never admit how much hope I cradle in my heart as I write!<br /><br /><b>Annie:</b> I know! Isn't it the best ever! But then I always get disappointed when no one seems to pick up on the stuff I did on purpose. Sigh.<br /><br /><b>Jamie:</b> Wow, that's kind of sad about your experience! But I think it's good that you enjoy literature still. You didn't let the experience ruin the art for you, I hope.<br /><br /><b>Scott B.:</b> Oh, yes, you're right! I definitely mean literary theory more than literary fiction. Good point. And I still can't believe you didn't pick up on the Snow White thing. Poisoned apples! Of course, I watch way too much Disney lately...<br /><br /><b>KLo:</b> I LOVE your comment! This is why I read things over and over again. It's always a different experience every time.<br /><br /><b>Crimey:</b> It makes me so so so happy to see that some damage has been undone!<br /><br /><b>Donna:</b> Awww, well I'm glad you finally did! I haven't read that author yet.<br /><br /><b>Erin:</b> It's true! And choking on cinnamon sucker is NOT fun! But the great symbol made it all worth it. Maybe that's why I remember this so much - the tears in my eyes from hot cinnamon. :)<br /><br /><b>Laurel:</b> I'm laughing because that happened in college for me! I had professors telling me I needed to write and publish. Not because of Jane Eyre, but other literary theory I kept arguing about. :)<br /><br /><b>Alexa:</b> I still haven't read all of To Kill a Mockingbird! I've got to do that soon. :)<br /><br /><b>BA:</b> Hah! Well, there's one interpretation!<br /><br /><b>Lois:</b> I've always thought you should be a teacher. I think you'd be great!<br /><br /><b>Laura:</b> I don't see anything wrong with interpreting song lyrics! Some of them are just confusing and beg for different interpretations. And then there's some that you can't tell what they're saying. ;)Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-18595216463752156202010-02-25T18:26:26.023-08:002010-02-25T18:26:26.023-08:00I agree with you 100% I even prefer to interpret m...I agree with you 100% I even prefer to interpret musical lyrics however I like. I know there are songs that have been written with a point in mind but I prefer to choose the ones that mean the most to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-70251025754701683642010-02-25T17:12:00.219-08:002010-02-25T17:12:00.219-08:00Rick: For the most part my teacher was great. She ...<b>Rick:</b> For the most part my teacher was great. She was just a little stubborn in some areas. <br /><br /><b>Andrew:</b> Hah! You would know what the tree really means, yep! I like your example there about the window and the bird. I've had readers pick up on things I didn't intend consciously, but subconsciously I like to boost my ego and say, why yes, I did mean that.<br /><br /><b>Scott:</b> Wow, she does sound like a great teacher! I think writers intentionally put themes in their books, but it's nice to know that we don't have to know what it is to enjoy or appreciate the work.<br /><br /><b>Loren:</b> I have written multiple meanings in my work before. My current novel's title means about 3 different things - at least that's what I've intended. Whether or not that's what people see and get out of it - that's up to them. I like the quote you gave!<br /><br /><b>Beth:</b> You sound like such a great teacher, really! I'm glad to hear that there are teachers out there like you helping students love and understand great literature.<br /><br /><b>Matthew:</b> Wow, a C? Yikes! Have you ever tried to intentionally put symbolism in your work before and had it work? Or do you avoid it? Or just not pay attention at all? I'm interested!<br /><br /><b>Yat-Yee:</b> I wonder, too! Probably all three. <br /><br /><b>Southpaw:</b> It is sad, I agree. It's sad to hear of teenagers these days saying they hate to read. This is why I think Stephanie Meyer and J.K. Rowling have done us all a good service and sparked some huge interest in reading amongst those that wouldn't have cared otherwise.<br /><br /><b>Genie:</b> It is art, yes! And the beauty of art is that when the artist lets other see it, they're giving others the right to interpret it how they will.<br /><br />I'm not sure that the student in your story should have been SO disrespectful of the author, although it does prove a good point.<br /><br /><b>Simon:</b> Beauty in the ambiguity, absolutely!<br /><br /><b>Tere:</b> Thank you for your comment! I'm interested to know why you ended up in the arts - you mean non-writing arts?<br /><br /><b>Davin:</b> It's sad that you had a bad experience with your English classes in school. Overall I had a great experience. You hit it on the head about a "secret code." That's exactly what I felt for such a long time - that every great piece of literature was just something to figure out. A part of me loved that, but another part of me loves it even more now that I know it's more about communication, like you say. I didn't skip you. I could never do that. ;)Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-1598330714226831642010-02-25T15:25:41.306-08:002010-02-25T15:25:41.306-08:00Very well said. I've had that experience too. ...Very well said. I've had that experience too. Teachers can intimidate students with their interpretations which are often just their own opinions. I would have really appreciated a teacher like Beth who didn't insist that symbols meant x and nothing else. Please.lotusgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663641163048764869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-37683200440741393812010-02-25T15:10:49.560-08:002010-02-25T15:10:49.560-08:00I had both Jane Eyre and Wide Sargasso Sea in a li...I had both Jane Eyre and Wide Sargasso Sea in a lit class in college.<br /><br />At one point in WSS, I forget her name but the wife that was locked up, you know the main character is bleeding from her head watching the hut burn down.<br /><br />My lit professor said, "Why do you think she's bleeding? I'll tell you why...It's her period."BA Boucherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09782252229637863365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-62330410580180051822010-02-25T14:48:47.026-08:002010-02-25T14:48:47.026-08:00There's nothing like a bad english teacher to ...There's nothing like a bad english teacher to ruin a good book. I had a succession of them, and it wasn't until well after school that I realised the merit of To Kill A Mockingbird and Catcher in the Rye.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-45016269810651754442010-02-25T14:13:44.780-08:002010-02-25T14:13:44.780-08:00I've never understood teachers who choose to t...I've never understood teachers who choose to treat literature as if it were algebra, in which Y = death, now solve for X. <br /><br />Frankly, the entire field of lit crit would have closed up shop decades ago if there were only one way to read a text. The real rightness/wrongness is in the ability to use a consistent hermeneutic that fits the verbal cues the author has left. So while it might be interesting to do a Freudian reading of Dickens, it very well may not be something one could persuasively argue.<br /><br />Still, had your new interpretation of Jane Eyre come up in grad class and your could consistently argue it, the prof would laud you and push you to publish!Laurel Garverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03657218435228802535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-55702228318957700172010-02-25T13:18:05.723-08:002010-02-25T13:18:05.723-08:00I agree with wholeheartedly on this. My favorite e...I agree with wholeheartedly on this. My favorite example is the Bible. It means different things to different people and that's just the way it should be. <br /><br />But I have to admit my favorite line in your post is: "I think I choked on a piece of cinnamon sucker because it was such a powerful symbol..." This made me laugh. :)Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782956337191738513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-72125741198740282682010-02-25T12:32:29.404-08:002010-02-25T12:32:29.404-08:00I had problems in school finding books I enjoyed b...I had problems in school finding books I enjoyed because of the interpretation requirement. I loved Jonathan Livingston Seagul, until we picked it apart to find all the political symbolism. I didn't get it. Took me years to pick up another book by the author.<br /><br />......dholedolorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08715849844092553699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-32858803739876440942010-02-25T12:11:45.946-08:002010-02-25T12:11:45.946-08:00Scott, it's like a perfect diamond. What can y...Scott, it's like a perfect diamond. What can you say about it but things like, "Oooooh ahhhhh, it's so beautiful!" End of discussion. But an imperfect diamond? People could debate the imperfections in lengthy tomes; imperfections tend to generate lots of discussion, lots of ideas. Especially with respect to selling, gaining and keeping readers, writing's very much about generating the elusive "buzzing." At least it should be to sustain a readership.<br /><br />I think many classics are great, but they're not perfect. If they were people probably would have ooooohed and ahhhhhed and then forgotten about them. Humans love tinkering with things, even mentally with the stories they're reading....<br /><br />I deliberately leave holes in my work, in my crystal lattice, a la mineralogy. Basically, I deliberately leave flaws, naughty writer that I am lol. About the mystery need--I definitely know what you mean. For me, my life's become so boring, I feel the need to entertain myself with my stories, to find out new stuff about me, whom I'm very bored living with all these years.mshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05189632590362435386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-22500943370751864942010-02-25T12:10:32.801-08:002010-02-25T12:10:32.801-08:00I'm a reformed literary fiction hater. I can c...I'm a reformed literary fiction hater. I can clearly remember a lot of hand slapping from my english teachers about the meaning of literary works. Nowadays ( starting almost two years ago), I started to give literary fiction another try and I haven't been disappointed after enjoying books by Sebold, McCarthy, Atwood & Niffenegger among others.About Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10011023963327391019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-84069990628570355792010-02-25T10:46:59.041-08:002010-02-25T10:46:59.041-08:00I became an English teacher in large part because ...I became an English teacher in large part because I knew I wouldn't be the hand-slapping, "You're WRONG" type. Whenever people say to me, "Doesn't it get old teaching 'To Kill a Mockingbird' for the eighteenth time?" I just smile. After all, when a student sees something in the book I never did, it makes the book brand new to me all over again. I would have given you a gold star sticker for your chestnut tree observation ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13955854427063032485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-26986366503970216482010-02-25T10:27:10.112-08:002010-02-25T10:27:10.112-08:00@F.P.: I think I know exactly what you mean when y...@F.P.: I think I know exactly what you mean when you say, "I leave myself some outs, some areas where I don't want to know everything." I like there to remain some mystery for <i>me</i> in my stories, too.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-53423303694079617372010-02-25T10:24:57.380-08:002010-02-25T10:24:57.380-08:00I'm going to agree with F.P. that there is bot...I'm going to agree with F.P. that there is both intended and unintended symbolism. In my last book, there are symbols that mean specific things, and to think they mean something else gives the story a different meaning. If I have done a poor job employing my symbols, or a reader doesn't share my cultural frame of reference, my point won't be communicated well. But as long as the reader enjoys the story, that's okay with me. I've read stories where I knew I was missing some of what the author was saying, but I still liked the stories.<br /><br />Of unintended symbolism, I have two stories. First, Lady Glamis read my last MS and in that book there is a scene involving a poisoned apple and a queen. "Did you mean all the Snow White images?" Glam asked. "Huh?" I said. But it's there, sure enough; I just wasn't aware I was doing that. So Glam's reading experience was actually richer than what I intended, so again: Win! <br /><br />In one of her novels ("Still Life," maybe), Antonia Byatt has a character taking classes on poetry from a prize-winning poet whom she admires immensely. She sees symbols in one of his longer poems that he denies as being there. She doesn't argue with him, but she keeps thinking that he's just being thick because the symbolism ir right there on the page for all to see. I have a feeling Byatt based this on a real experience she had at university.<br /><br />In my WIP, there are images I'm throwing in because they seem right at the moment I'm writing them, but I have no idea right now if I've built any sort of symbolic framework. I know that clothing (hats, especially) comes up a lot in this book, as does whiskey. I'll be interested to see what readers think when that day comes. But whereas my last book had a lot of deliberate symbolism running through it (trees, weather, colors, etc.), I'm not really working consciously with symbols at all with this new book. But I assume they're in there, all over it. Language, after all, is nothing but a system of abstract symbols, and stories are systems of interacting symbols. So we'll see.<br /><br />Also, I had a couple of those awful English teachers, too. I might suggest that literary fiction isn't the enemy of pleasure so much as literary theory is.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-37149819138530777112010-02-25T09:54:37.923-08:002010-02-25T09:54:37.923-08:00I'd been reading classic lit long before colle...I'd been reading classic lit long before college (homeschooled, so didn't have high school English teachers to contend with), and thought I had a good handle on how I enjoyed and interpreted (when necessary) it. I was so excited to take an actual Literature class in college...only to have the professors tell me I didn't know what I was talking about, I wasn't "getting it", and that I needed to see things their way to get decent grades on my tests (I use plural pronouns because it wasn't just one professor, or one class). I also objected to the need for "interpretation" of "everything" - sometimes a tree is just a tree. None of my profs could/would accept that as valid. <br /><br />I was on the fence over whether to get an English or History degree...and those classes made it easy to go for the history degree instead. I gave up on college lit classes after only a few. <br /><br />I quite enjoy the classics, and I enjoy modern literary fiction occasionally too. But yes, I absolutely think that narrow interpretations, or the insistence that one is "right" and others "wrong" could easily turn people off of the genre (and classics) for good.Jamie D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05486427517423813962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-25501476405372507822010-02-25T09:52:12.188-08:002010-02-25T09:52:12.188-08:00I think there are times when we feel it is more or...I think there are times when we feel it is more or less important to know what the author/creator intended. Art should stand alone apart from the creator, sure, but sometimes you want some context.<br /><br />Another story about my teacher. Before T.S. Eliot died, my teacher hunted him down and knocked on his front door to ask him what the heck he meant by the "soda water" line in The Wasteland.<br /><br />Eliot answered the door. My teacher asked about the line, and Eliot gave him a concise, specific answer. <br /><br />But he was so geeked that T.S. Eliot answered the door and talked to him that he totally forgot what he said.<br /><br />And you know what? I think maybe it's better that way. The mystery and excitement of ambiguity--and even irreconcilable paradox--can make a piece so much more alive than a tidy, cut-and-dry explanation.Jean Michelle Miernikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08971882597502010124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-71308842067715076832010-02-25T09:51:42.464-08:002010-02-25T09:51:42.464-08:00I feel like I've lucked out with great English...I feel like I've lucked out with great English teachers my whole life. It seems to me most of them were open to different interpretations.<br /><br />I love it when someone finds symbolism in my stories that I didn't realize was there. It makes me feel like inside I'm really a literary genius.Annie Loudenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008836459417708235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-47212060339354568262010-02-25T09:30:08.056-08:002010-02-25T09:30:08.056-08:00I once wrote a story with a hero whose name was si...I once wrote a story with a hero whose name was similar to the punch line of a joke I had never heard. My brother read the story and told me later that he kept waiting for me to include the joke. There's no way we can know how our readers are going to interpret what we write. Just do it and hope for the best.Chuck H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07266126276487521854noreply@blogger.com