tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post7835684415916806100..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: Conflicting conflicts?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-50178709819603147862011-06-16T10:19:46.101-07:002011-06-16T10:19:46.101-07:00That's so cool that you told me, Robyn! I real...That's so cool that you told me, Robyn! I really hope you like some of the stories. :)Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-28129067987050924192011-06-16T10:18:34.629-07:002011-06-16T10:18:34.629-07:00Your book came today! I will settle in and read it...Your book came today! I will settle in and read it tonight. It looks fabulous. Red Man, Blue Man is in it. I LOVE that story. WOOT!Robyn Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17356555082768185840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-85055894390204273132011-06-14T11:00:43.164-07:002011-06-14T11:00:43.164-07:00Robyn, I want to read your work!Robyn, I want to read your work!Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-15913471155461141582011-06-14T10:59:17.806-07:002011-06-14T10:59:17.806-07:00Davin, I must admit that this is my one HUGE probl...Davin, I must admit that this is my one HUGE problem when I'm writing. I add way too many conflicts thinking the book is made more exciting. But I end up adding so many, the writing gets hard to keep up with. Betas say that, not me. :-) Well, I agree. *sniff* I see what you're saying about each subplot reaching its climax at different times in the story, but isn't it still confusing? Or at least for middle grade? <br /><br />Oh that I could write like Tolstoy. I hope that someday I can. A middle grade Tolstoy. I will go and check out the pink dolphins and then read what Bailey says about all this.Robyn Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17356555082768185840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-51383231789151331352011-06-13T22:35:30.523-07:002011-06-13T22:35:30.523-07:00McKenzie, thanks for the tip. I have tried to enta...McKenzie, thanks for the tip. I have tried to entangle things because I love it when that happens in other stories and movies. High Noon and Princess Mononoke both come to mind. I've found in my own writing that I can only get that to happen sometimes, it's almost a matter of luck with my current writing approach. But hopefully I'll get better at that.<br /><br />Donna, I guess we're allowed to be selfish when it comes to our own writing, huh? When I was a year or two into my writing I had a friend tell me that my work reminded her of seeing billboards flash by during a drive along the highway. What she meant by that, I think, is that I wasn't exploring my ideas fully. The comment made a lot of sense to me, and it helped me to express myself more clearly, though I think I still struggle with that. I'm finding that the better I get at writing the more words I use to get my ideas across. Sometimes I worry that being so thorough ends up being boring though. I'm not sure. I'll definitely email you. I'd love to do an interview over at your place. :)Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-24454685785652424432011-06-13T21:59:02.298-07:002011-06-13T21:59:02.298-07:00Oh, sorry; I was readidng though some of the comme...Oh, sorry; I was readidng though some of the comments, and I caught one from Scott that I agree with. You don't have to tie up all the loose ends or make a happy ending; you just have to tie all the subplots together. Some storylines have no resolution; but they can have a satisfactory conclusion for the novel context.<br /><br />Does that make sense?<br /><br />.......dholedolorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08715849844092553699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-43253207461622240152011-06-13T21:50:52.731-07:002011-06-13T21:50:52.731-07:00No dude; not selfish to want that ultimate climax,...No dude; not selfish to want that ultimate climax,where all the subplots coincide.<br /><br />When I read a complex novel with multiple subplots, I want all of them to tie in to the overall plot. I need that tidy explanation of why all the distractions are worth my time in reading.<br /><br />I don't like skipping sections of writing, not matter how irrelevant the content, b/c I'm sure the author will show the relevance in the wrapup of the novel plot. When sections are not explained adequately, I get frustrated, thinking I wasted my time reading passages that had no relevance to the story plot - no matter how intriguing the distraction.<br /><br />I want to "see" how it all ties, not just be "told" it was relevant in a summary epilogue. I've read bits of your writing process, and I know nothing in your novels happens without a viable cause-and-effect explanation. This intrigues me as a reader. I'm fascinated by sequence-of-events processes.<br /><br />Thank you for leaving a comment on my blog post today. I hope you can take a few minutes (about 20?) to write a post about how you "wake up your writing monster". The topic discussion here could be expanded upon; and if Wednesday 6/15 is not your post date, you could ask B. Nagle to post on his blog for you.<br /><br />Domey, I'd love to hear how you developed the idea of The Wild Grass, and your own writing/research processes. If not on the "Writing Monster" event, would you consider an interview on my blog? I'm serious here. <br /><br />If you're interested, please e-mail me, and I'll send you a list of interview questions.<br /><br />........dholedolorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08715849844092553699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-46470527991260545192011-06-13T20:51:28.533-07:002011-06-13T20:51:28.533-07:00Entangle the conclusions. That's your best bet...Entangle the conclusions. That's your best bet. It doesn't even have to be direct, even just a scene with two of the characters meeting and talking about what has happened usually works. Barbara Kingsolver does it well in The Bean Trees.McKenzie McCannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11707799179783394809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-35159318319487359202011-06-13T15:52:40.698-07:002011-06-13T15:52:40.698-07:00@ Rick Daley. The story-within-a-story structure o...@ Rick Daley. The story-within-a-story structure of The Man in the Cinder Clouds sounds really intriguing. <br /><br />Tara Maya<br />The Unfinished Song: Initiate <a href="http://goo.gl/BHu4i" rel="nofollow">Nook</a>, <a href="http://goo.gl/nb6QB" rel="nofollow">Kindle UK</a>, <a href="http://goo.gl/My1if" rel="nofollow">Kindle US</a> , <a href="http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/53571" rel="nofollow">FREE</a>Tara Mayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09095632631554776002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-18978747902947918242011-06-13T15:30:23.036-07:002011-06-13T15:30:23.036-07:00Stephanie, That is so awesome! Thank you so much f...Stephanie, That is so awesome! Thank you so much for telling me about this! It is definitely heartwarming. I'd love to learn more about your class. Maybe I could send them a surprise or something.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-45374374161395635582011-06-13T14:30:47.136-07:002011-06-13T14:30:47.136-07:00Ok...so this might be irrelevant to the conflict q...Ok...so this might be irrelevant to the conflict question, but since you mentioned Cyberllama, I thought I'd tell you about a little anecdote from my classroom. I teach 10th grade literature, and a couple of months ago, I was reading the post that you made about expressing time to my class. You used the Cyberllama as your mode of delivery. Since then, my students have embraced the idea of the Cyberllama, and he keeps reappearing in simple things like journals that they write down to a random vocab sentence. I thought it might warm your heart.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16354344761489456996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-47475450533187584372011-06-13T11:47:56.221-07:002011-06-13T11:47:56.221-07:00I used to not be into denouements, but I'm oka...I used to not be into denouements, but I'm okay with them now with certain stories. Prologues are sometimes okay too.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-14667161470832282562011-06-13T11:43:08.815-07:002011-06-13T11:43:08.815-07:00Also, I hate denouements, so I like to go out with...Also, I hate denouements, so I like to go out with the story still in full motion. And I like formal balance, which you can see if you look at how the beginnings and endings of my novels share subject matter and specific imagery (stars/star charts/telescopes in one and hangings in the other).scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-88322992927189494232011-06-13T11:42:46.669-07:002011-06-13T11:42:46.669-07:00Scott, thank you for expanding. I do understand th...Scott, thank you for expanding. I do understand this more, and I also think it's the first time I've understand and agreed with your narrative argument. I think this is sort of a more naturalistic approach, for lack of a better word, and it's something I dabble in too. I'll sometimes drop storylines or hint at them without getting into them to try and create a sense of a bigger world. Sometimes I can leave these things that way, sometimes I feel the need to tie them up more neatly.<br /><br />Miscellaneous, you bring up a really good point, and it was something I noticed while was reading through entries for our anthologies and also when I was an editor for SmokeLong. Sometimes I story becomes all about the build up, and almost always the build up is a let down. For a long time I gave myself permission to basically ignore the idea of beginnings and endings, trying to maximize the middle of my stories and make them the most interesting part. And, I do think that with a lot of stories, people loves them for their middles and can forget the ends. It's unconventional, but I like the idea of being able to pick up a book and just falling into the story at any point on any page without need to approach it linearly from page 1 to the end. It's often tough for me to start books because I don't have an emotional attachment to anything in them yet, and the experience is cold. I sometimes try to skip that by reading in the middle first and then coming back to the beginning later. I also like what you say about each story being unique. That's one of the most exciting things to me about a reader looking at a writer's body of work instead of an individual story. It allows the writer to play more and be more creative.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-48378453071117258062011-06-13T11:24:04.860-07:002011-06-13T11:24:04.860-07:00A potential big problem with always leaving the ma...A potential big problem with always leaving the main climax till near the very end (at least IMO): if it doesn't seem like THE BEST CLIMAX EVER WRITTEN, and the work is long and complex, the end climax will tend to fall flat, will tend to feel...not worth the long hard read. Or, e.g., in a romance, if the two characters don't have sex for the first time till the book's very end, and the sex isn't the BEST SEX EVER-EVER-EVER OVER HUMANITY'S HISTORY, the sex will tend to seem flat. Too much building towards climaxes often demands the end-climaxes be superstrong. But not all stories have NATURAL superstrong end-climaxes. I don't believe in pasting on endings that don't grow from the actual stories. I think that if a story stays quieter all along, with a sort of background noise of miniclimaxes and lots of tensions that keep readerly interest, the ending doesn't have to be so loud. Superloud endings usually seem obnoxious and showy to me. I'm growing tired of all the envelope pushing I see going on today. Sometimes it feels like I'm being force-fed. Just be natural and I'll listen and like. <br /><br />With my own writing, one of my books resolves what-has-seemed-to-be-the-main-conflict-all-along before the very end, but that resolution actually generates ANOTHER problem-conflict from something only hinted at all along, and that second problem winds up the real end-(semi)-climax, which problem became obvious quite late in the work. There IS a subliminal cascading in this story, so that final resolution should seem inevitable--there are hints from the get-go. <br /><br />Does what I did work? I don't know. No one's ever discussed it with me. For me, it's what I wanted. And I'm the boss of my books lol. <br /><br />Also, always remember: each story is probably unique, has specific constraints, a specific set up, etc. Follow the story's lead....mshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05189632590362435386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-62073311536312083302011-06-13T11:16:32.944-07:002011-06-13T11:16:32.944-07:00Davin: What I mean is that some subplots don’t nee...Davin: What I mean is that some subplots don’t need to be resolved at all. You can leave the reader curious. Some others, you can make it clear what is going to happen without showing that ending. Woolf does that a lot in “Mrs Dalloway.” One character has come to London to get help from his rich/powerful friends and they’ve all decided that they won’t help him. The confrontation/disappointment comes after the end of the book, but the reader knows it’s coming so we don’t need to see it. We can imagine it so that storyline’s all wrapped up. So part of what I mean is that you can raise the tension of a subplot as much as possible and then not give an explicit climax if it’s clear what that climax would be. You just have to point to it. That raises the tension of the entire narrative. Which is the thing for me: I think of the narrative as a single thing, like a long tapestry that’s viewed from one end to the other, say from right to left. Lots of strands going, lots of patterns moving across the tapestry on the same direction, but all the patterns don’t need to go from end-to-end. They are there to support the whole of the tapestry, to work in conjunction with all the other strands and patterns, but you don’t have to treat each of them individually as if they’re separate, stand-alone stories. Think of the artistic unity of the entire narrative, not of a bunch of chunks of stuff all wrapped together. Create One Thing, not a bundle of things. As for my own endings, in both the novels you’ve read, the idea is to give the reader the feeling that they’ve just jumped into space while holding their breaths.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-64064155614369235142011-06-13T10:56:05.637-07:002011-06-13T10:56:05.637-07:00Tara Maya, I think what you say makes a lot of sen...Tara Maya, I think what you say makes a lot of sense. It's sort of an exercise in tension, and you want to draw out that tension using the strongest tool (storyline) you have. <br /><br />This is a great way of putting it: "This may seem to formula for you, but the important point is that you hold off on the element that is most important to you and your novel."<br /><br />Like what Miscellaneous is doing, I've also been playing around with this a bit to switch things up, so I guess the underlying principle is somehow intuitive if it inspires me to deviate from it.<br /><br />Scott, I'm not understanding this: "I think balance and a building up of emotion are important more than actual resolutions of subplots, especially if it's clear enough what's going to happen to some of the support characters that you don't actually have to dramatize it all." but I really want to. The way you end your stories has always been interesting to me and it's made me work harder on how I end my own stories.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-56663781286076069622011-06-13T10:21:55.013-07:002011-06-13T10:21:55.013-07:00What Tara Maya said: "the important point is ...What Tara Maya said: "the important point is that you hold off on the element that is most important to you and your novel. If you find yourself getting bored before the end of the novel, you may have resolved the part of the book that is actually most important to you before the subplots."scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-6468185220596652342011-06-13T10:20:48.611-07:002011-06-13T10:20:48.611-07:00I think you should save the most critical climax f...I think you should save the most critical climax for the last. Otherwise it does seem like you're just sweeping up after a long night of fun.<br /><br />Alex has good points about making sure the resolutions all come in the right order. I think balance and a building up of emotion are important more than actual resolutions of subplots, especially if it's clear enough what's going to happen to some of the support characters that you don't actually have to dramatize it all. I think this ordering of emotions, so to speak, is what I was complaining about to Michelle in her early version of <i>Monarch.</i> I'm sort of beginning to think about resolutions of subplots for the detective novel. I think most of them won't be resolved at all, just like in real life!scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-24206584884482060742011-06-13T10:19:06.173-07:002011-06-13T10:19:06.173-07:00I think your instinct to have all the storylines c...I think your instinct to have all the storylines climax near the end is spot on. Nonetheless, even if they are all as near to the end as possible, some still have to be resolved before others.<br /><br />The rule of thumb I use is to go by, ahem, genre considerations. The story elements are stacked like Russian dolls.<br /><br /> What I mean is that if one were writing a philosophical detective story like Scott, you introduce philosophical bits first, then a dead body, then at the end, resolve the mystery, then at the VERY end, resolve (or fail to resolve, possibly) the philosophical bits. But if you were writing a genre detective story, rather than a literary one, you'd introduce dead body first, dabble in philosophy only after the action was going, resolve philosophy at the end and at the VERY end, reveal the killer.<br /><br />Likewise, if you were doing a romantic suspense, you ask yourself, "Is this a mystery story with a romance subplot, or a romance with a mystery subplot?" If it's primarily a romance, then resolve the mystery first and the romance last. If it's primarily a mystery, bring the couple together first, then find the killer.<br /><br />This may seem to formula for you, but the important point is that you hold off on the element that is most important to you and your novel. If you find yourself getting bored before the end of the novel, you may have resolved the part of the book that is actually most important to you before the subplots. Try it the other way around.<br /><br />Tara Maya<br />The Unfinished Song: Initiate <a href="http://goo.gl/BHu4i" rel="nofollow">Nook</a>, <a href="http://goo.gl/nb6QB" rel="nofollow">Kindle UK</a>, <a href="http://goo.gl/My1if" rel="nofollow">Kindle US</a> , <a href="http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/53571" rel="nofollow">FREE</a>Tara Mayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09095632631554776002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-6009559608967729832011-06-13T10:06:35.001-07:002011-06-13T10:06:35.001-07:00Michelle, I was never very good about wrapping up ...Michelle, I was never very good about wrapping up all of my storylines, so I appreciate it when a writer can do it well and in a way that doesn't feel slow. I'm curious to see how your final draft of Monarch ends!Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-17748965947667497532011-06-13T09:59:44.858-07:002011-06-13T09:59:44.858-07:00As you know, Davin, Monarch has three separate sto...As you know, Davin, Monarch has three separate stories, and this was a problem for me for me trying to figure out how to line it all up just right. I love the way it is now, but I do know Scott said he got a bit bored at the end as I was wrapping up all the story lines (after the climax had taken place). That was on an earlier draft, though.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-76248503644234454242011-06-13T09:52:59.954-07:002011-06-13T09:52:59.954-07:00Miscellaneous, as I'm thinking back about the ...Miscellaneous, as I'm thinking back about the process, the original way the story was constructed was that the first half revolved around Nam and her mother. Then, in the second half, the mother became non-existent and the story was about Nam and the widower. So, I see now it wasn't even a shift in main characters but the storyline for the same main character. It's been so long since I thought about that story's development.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-20307032181381461382011-06-13T09:49:36.003-07:002011-06-13T09:49:36.003-07:00Alex, I did the index card exercise for Rooster to...Alex, I did the index card exercise for Rooster too. It helped me some, but it also just got me really intimidated. Ha! I don't remember how I finally resolved the end of Rooster. Oh yeah, I didn't.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-56204984327421410742011-06-13T09:48:19.581-07:002011-06-13T09:48:19.581-07:00I think there's a slight shift, I can see you ...I think there's a slight shift, I can see you tried that, I felt it, but you pulled right back to Nam, and her presence is the more dominant. And the story's probably better for not having a total switch (I mean, I'm implied-remarking on a hypothetical, which is just not accurate... I can only know the story sitting in front of me). Had you gone to the other person and stayed there, Nam's character would have seemed like she'd dropped out into The Great Big Ether somewhere!mshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05189632590362435386noreply@blogger.com