tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post7918066918704353720..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: On LiteraryUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-77279896361617005212009-05-29T10:45:47.445-07:002009-05-29T10:45:47.445-07:00Reason: Nope, not trying to talk down to you. I w...<B>Reason:</B> Nope, not trying to talk down to you. I was just saying that your term EASY reading sounded a lot like spoon-feeding to me. Now that you introduce the word "enlightening" into the mix, your meaning makes more sense. <br /><br />Sometimes I like a piece of literature to exhaust me. But that's just me. :)<br /><br />Okay, pointless discussion over.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-2768068645250581862009-05-29T10:33:34.310-07:002009-05-29T10:33:34.310-07:00...Tara, we're kind of talking at cross-purposes. ......Tara, we're kind of talking at cross-purposes. I see it as some writers just aren't willing to do the mental work to write clearly and understandably. Both need to do work, readers and writers; I just feel writers should do the most. <br /><br />And just like I think people shouldn't live above their means, writers shouldn't write above their means. Some writers do not have the mental capability to write about astrophysics in either a nonfictional or fictional way.<br /><br />Too many science fiction writers do not understand real science, nor do they know how to explain it so have no business writing it. I have a background in science and even I don't feel comfortable writing science textbooks disguised as science fiction; I think doing that's irresponsible. <br /><br />IMO, the best science fiction writers, the ones who write the most character-driven, not-textbooks works--they tend to be those who've had real science experience. Catherine Asaro is one of them. John E. Stith is another.<br /><br />Lady...now your post is kinda implying I'm juvenile intellectually as a reader? Do you not see what I mean about talking down to readers? <br /><br />IMO, more classics are enlightening rather than exhausting. Ulysses is on the exhausting end, but most are not like Ulysses to me. I generally find classics straightforward clear reading, and this is why I think they lasted--because they're actually very basic writing about life that could be read by humans at any time simply because they're human. <br /><br />I just don't find most classics very interesting because of their specific contents (e.g., they're often misogynistic). Nevertheless, most of my favorite books are considered classics.<br /><br />And there's a big difference between wanting to be enlightened but not wanting to be exhausted, and wanting to be "spoon-fed." If people can't see all the middles between those two extremes, then my discussing this is over.<br /><br />Actually, yeah, I'm done with this discussion. It does seem pointless now.mshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05189632590362435386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-88040824092943175742009-05-29T10:04:30.848-07:002009-05-29T10:04:30.848-07:00Reason: I've tried to keep myself from saying this...<B>Reason:</B> I've tried to keep myself from saying this, but it's hard to keep myself from thinking that you want your fiction spoon-fed to you. That's fine for some fiction, I think, but the world be a sad place indeed if all the classic literary fiction on the shelves didn't present some sort of challenge to its readers. <br /><br />And yes, I think some of those authors actually wrote their fiction as a challenge - not to confuse and intimidate readers, but to help them grow as writers and thinkers and people. Their work, amazingly enough, has lasted through time. There's something to be said about that, I think.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-29082124132695160122009-05-29T10:00:07.772-07:002009-05-29T10:00:07.772-07:00The thing is, Reason, no matter how clearly one wr...The thing is, Reason, no matter how clearly one writes about lifeforms on a neutron star (Dragon's Egg by Robert Forward), the reader is still going to have to invest in understanding enough about the nature of gravity and spacetime to make sense of the plot, or appreciate the coolness of the idea. Some readers just aren't willing to the mental work to do that. Obviously, hard sf like this is going to be more accessible to readers who already have studied non-fiction texts on the underlying subjects, but other readers can still enjoy it if they put some work into it.<br /><br />I'm not a physicist, but I enjoy hard sf. Yes, I do find it burns more calories to read hard sf than a Regency romance. I can read Barbara Cartland inattentively; I cannot so read Greg Egan.<br /><br />I don't think Egan is trying to confuse me. On the contrary, he labors to make difficult concepts as transluscent as possible. But difficult concepts are still difficult, and I, for one, would not want them dumbed down. This has nothing to do with authorial snobbery; I'm speaking here as a reader.Tara Mayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09095632631554776002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-72068365947229454292009-05-29T09:48:28.838-07:002009-05-29T09:48:28.838-07:00This "stop thinking their doing rocket science whe...This "stop thinking their doing rocket science when they aren't"<br /><br />should be this "stop thinking they're doing rocket science when they aren't." <br /><br />I got like two hours of sleep last night!mshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05189632590362435386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-74511035871071226202009-05-29T09:42:22.704-07:002009-05-29T09:42:22.704-07:00I think this is the key: fantasy, literary, sf, th...I think this is the key: fantasy, literary, sf, these all tax readers brains, albeit in different ways. And some readers find the taxes higher than they're willing to pay. Nothing wrong with this.<br /><br />I used to take the approach I would submit to any agent who expressed even the remotest interest in fantasy; as long as they didn't expressly say, "No fantasy or sf, please!" or "Anything but elves and spaceships!" I'd send it in. <br /><br />Now I take the opposite approach. I want an agent who genuinely enjoys and undertstands the genres I'm comfortable in. I'm *glad* agents are honest about their preferences. Readers have preferences, and agents should too.<br /><br />There are certain fantasy settings which I've seen so often they bore me now, and others I've never cared for to begin with, so I have no trouble sympthathizing with someone who might feel that way toward the entire genre. There are entire genres I actively avoid(Westerns, Horror), and others I just don't lavish money on. <br /><br />And tastes change. I used to LOATHE the Romance genre. Now I'm published in it. It helped when the feminist movement finally permeated the genre, so part of of it was a change in the genre itself, but part of it was my own changed understanding of what I wanted to get out of this kind of book.Tara Mayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09095632631554776002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-62349243229017990792009-05-29T09:30:57.983-07:002009-05-29T09:30:57.983-07:00From GlassDragon: “Reason, I think you missed the ...From GlassDragon: “Reason, I think you missed the point. I was asking why *readers* shy away from literary fiction.”<br /><br />--I didn't respond to you, so I don't get what you mean here. But, anyway, I gave reasons why I think some readers avoid literary fiction. I keep giving them. If people don't agree with those reasons, they don't agree....<br /><br />One last thing. Sometimes the more meaning you try to give a written work, the less meaning it winds up having because that work becomes too convoluted, too busy. There may be upper limits to how many levels sentences, paragraphs and whole works can be written on before they devolve into too ambitious overwritten gibberish. <br /><br />I'm a very allegorical writer; I've always got multiple issues going on in my works. However, I control this: I intentionally create upper limits because I'd rather have fewer levels done very well than more levels done not so well. Sometimes it's true that less really is more!mshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05189632590362435386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-68028877052696217642009-05-29T09:28:52.960-07:002009-05-29T09:28:52.960-07:00Lady, my post wasn't an attempt to prove you wrong...Lady, my post wasn't an attempt to prove you wrong, but to explain something, and make you question and then try something else--that's all.<br /><br />From Tara: "Ask yourself as a reader, honestly: isn't there a difference between putting a book down because it is too predicable, and putting a book down because it is too challenging?"<br /><br />--No, not to me. Books aren't marathons. I want to be enlightened by them, not exhausted by them. But if I want to be exhausted intellectually, I'll pick up a textbook because that's what textbooks are for. Fiction writing shouldn't masquerade as nonfiction; fiction will probably never cut the mustard there! Fiction masquerading as nonfiction is poor writing to me (and vice versa). These are two entirely separate writing ways with different demands, the latter actually making the most demands on both writers and readers, in my opinion.<br /><br />The arts can be waaaaay too arrogant. I really think fiction writers need to get over themselves and stop thinking their doing rocket science when they aren't. The world probably won't end if whatever story doesn't get read a certain way, but many people might get killed if engineers make design mistakes. <br /><br />I try to keep writing in perspective; it shouldn't be a contest to figure out who's a more serious writer, who's more devoted to "the word," whose writing is deeper, and all that kind of crap. Writers should just write and readers should just read. Reading and buying art is a choice people make--and today people probably have fewer choices because economies around the world are tanking and discretionary income is lacking. Insulting readers is unlikely to make them read more.<br /><br />And I still object to this "too challenging" notion. I always assume readers are smart enough and eager enough to handle anything I could push their way. At the same time, if I want my meanings to be clear, I must write clearly. Even genius readers can be tripped up by crappy prose. I shoot for my doing 90% of the reading work inside my writing; when I've gotten responses on my fiction, I've typically gotten thoughtful ones that made me think, and often from people who weren't "intellectuals." People have repeatedly told me my writing has made them think, my nonfiction writing too. It just doesn't always make them think positively towards me--that's been my biggest challenge.<br /><br />But this is another thing I think too much fiction is about and, yes, literary fiction seems more guilty of this: writers thinking they can outsmart readers. Like because they want to be dubbed misunderstood geniuses, some writers don't want readers to understand their works, so they intentionally try to write "above" readers. I find this silly. Technically, fiction creators are always above readers with respect to creations because creators have inside knowledge readers don't possess. Reading this arrogant writerly rank being pulled inside actual text--that really turns me off. I bet it turns off other readers too.<br /><br />Again, keep things in perspective. Writing a story where you (impersonal) make all the rules and explain all the ideas and are in the driver's seat--this doesn't automatically show intellectual superiority, or even intellectualism. It does show control-freakness. And inside knowledge. Not that I mean writing a story isn't hard work--it certainly is, especially writing a decent one! But I disagree with the seeming notion (mostly bandied about by the arts) that writers tend to be intellectual, more intelligent. I think writers tend to think about life more than less creative people, but that doesn't necessarily mean writers think more logically or have more wisdom.mshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05189632590362435386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-57040622373617047042009-05-29T07:36:16.916-07:002009-05-29T07:36:16.916-07:00I think a lot of agents are unwilling to accept hi...I think a lot of agents are unwilling to accept high fantasy for the same reason they are unwilling to accept literary fiction: it might tax readers' brains. I mean, oh my flip, what if they have to imagine places other than New York City, London, Paris, etc.?!Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031226145526664876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-75591111280725296732009-05-29T07:24:52.467-07:002009-05-29T07:24:52.467-07:00I suppose their stance makes sense; it's not as if...I suppose their stance makes sense; it's not as if The Lord of the Rings or The Chronicles of Narnia did well when filmized. Durn 'em!Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031226145526664876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-51771481987749457862009-05-29T07:22:28.321-07:002009-05-29T07:22:28.321-07:00Justus: But I also must ask you why you get uptigh...<B>Justus:</B> But I also must ask you why you get uptight over agents only taking specific types of fantasy? Is it because it's not your type? They're just selling what they know they can sell, I'm assuming. I don't think it's a blatant stab at other types that they don't represent. Still, I see why it's very frustrating. I have a feeling I'll have a very hard time finding an agent to represent my work because it's not going to fit into a specific type of genre. At least I think it won't. I might be proved wrong. :)Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-13064345307400669682009-05-29T07:11:37.614-07:002009-05-29T07:11:37.614-07:00Justus: Okay, that makes sense. I like some fantas...<B>Justus:</B> Okay, that makes sense. I like some fantasy over real-world fiction. I like most real-world fiction over fantasy. In the end, it just matters if I like the setting and characters and prose. If it all works together there's a chance I'll love it. Of course, the writer doesn't have much control over whether or not the reader will love the setting. I can't stand most stories set in a high school setting, fantasy or real-world. Because I hated high school and would rather not even go into that realm of my brain and memories.<br /><br />Anyway, yes, I can see why you get uptight over so many agents not accepting sci-fi and fantasy, or specific types of it. It doesn't seem fair that they judge the genres right off the bat. I think that's one of the bad sides of genre - it can invite blind judgment so easily. Although I'm sure those agents have received enough of one type of submission that there's a reason they say no up front. :(Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-21434813485719349462009-05-29T06:57:14.647-07:002009-05-29T06:57:14.647-07:00I forgive you for nearly tearing me to pieces, for...I forgive you for nearly tearing me to pieces, for my eyes did witness the recent assault on your character: the "schizophrenia" ordeal.<br /><br />The reason I almost felt offended (ha ha) is because of how many times I've read "only accepts urban fantasy," "not interested in fantasy stories requiring a map," etc. Darn those insular agents!Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031226145526664876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-27960979733464599832009-05-29T06:51:57.338-07:002009-05-29T06:51:57.338-07:00Justus: Okay, the adverb clears you of all fault. ...<B>Justus:</B> Okay, the adverb clears you of all fault. "ALMOST" and "UNREASONABLY" are quite clear. I'll keep my claws retracted, thank you. :)Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-10610636603151278882009-05-29T06:47:45.405-07:002009-05-29T06:47:45.405-07:00Your terror pleases me. But keep in mind I never s...Your terror pleases me. But keep in mind I never said you offended me; I used one of them there adverb fellers for a reason.Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031226145526664876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-14947039338756778522009-05-29T06:42:55.662-07:002009-05-29T06:42:55.662-07:00Justus: Terrified.<B>Justus:</B> Terrified.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-15989311483219225342009-05-29T06:41:44.172-07:002009-05-29T06:41:44.172-07:00Ha ha. Perhaps I should have said "fangs," since I...Ha ha. Perhaps I should have said "fangs," since I already have teeth. Man, I blew my chance to intimidate you.Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031226145526664876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-31077077769287713392009-05-29T06:41:03.023-07:002009-05-29T06:41:03.023-07:00Tara: Well I'm glad you're not getting offended by...<B>Tara:</B> Well I'm glad you're not getting offended by my preference. Yay!<br /><br /><B>Karen:</B> I knew this would happen. Scott and Davin warned me. But I don't think this has all been in vain. I thought I was pretty clear in saying that I think "literary" applies to most writing. It has been interesting to see the reaction to that.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-23456261877600936032009-05-29T06:40:14.496-07:002009-05-29T06:40:14.496-07:00Imagine me with teeth and claws. Scared yet?Imagine me with teeth and claws. Scared yet?Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031226145526664876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-57510202375725241722009-05-29T06:17:54.217-07:002009-05-29T06:17:54.217-07:00Justus: Oh heavens!!!!!! I never said you or I can...<B>Justus:</B> Oh heavens!!!!!! I never said you or I can't accept fantasy fully! Where did you get that from? I actually really LOVE LOTR. But I'm not <B><I>intrigued</I></B> by much fantasy or sci-fi. Why is that such a big deal? If it doesn't fascinate me, I can't really help that too much. I'm still trying to like it. I just prefer to read about stories that aren't set in a fantasy or sci-fi world. It's a preference. An opinion that I'm entitled to.<br /><br />Please don't get offended that I don't love fantasy and sci-fi. I don't get offended when people don't like what I like.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-91448490176646287432009-05-29T04:24:54.954-07:002009-05-29T04:24:54.954-07:00"Just understand that I mean that I prefer real-wo..."Just understand that I mean that I prefer real-world stories to fantasy stories/worlds."<br /><br />I'm almost offended by this (perhaps unreasonably so). First, the events of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings took place on Arda (i.e., Earth); second, I think when droves of "fantasy" authors turned to Earth for assistance, it drained their creativity and their readers' imaginations. <br /><br />Recently I told Bailey how C.S. Lewis used alien races and alien settings to shed new light on humanity. I was referring to his novel Out of the Silent Planet, but he may have done the same with Narnia and other novels. I wouldn't know. <br /><br />If we accept fantasy at all, let us accept it fully.Bowmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11031226145526664876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-39226592857109522262009-05-29T04:12:00.784-07:002009-05-29T04:12:00.784-07:0074 comments? Apparently the name isnt scaring off ...74 comments? Apparently the name isnt scaring off as many people as you think. lol. <br />I say write what you want you snake charmer you :)kahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10789825860272178765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-32062140241768438342009-05-29T01:11:20.231-07:002009-05-29T01:11:20.231-07:00Reason, I think you missed the point. I was asking...Reason, I think you missed the point. I was asking why *readers* shy away from literary fiction. Glam merely answered my question. If you like, I'll ask some questions about writers of literary fiction so Glam can fault them, too. I'm an equal oportunity faulter. :D<br /><br />Also, ~*TOLSTOY!*~<br /><br />That's for you, scott g.f. bailey!Glass Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671548214638835932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-35038597302860501682009-05-29T00:26:43.858-07:002009-05-29T00:26:43.858-07:00Don't worry, Lady Glamis, I know you are not the s...Don't worry, Lady Glamis, I know you are not the sort to engage in genre bashing.<br /><br />I feel the exact inverse: it's harder for me to work up interest in a story set in "Mundania" (fantasy nerd slang for the Real World) than in another world. Why is this? I don't blame books set in the real world; it's something in me.Tara Mayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09095632631554776002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-49542370527012243852009-05-29T00:12:33.556-07:002009-05-29T00:12:33.556-07:00Tara: It is way too late for me to answer intellig...<B>Tara:</B> It is way too late for me to answer intelligently to your comment. But I did read it, and I agree with your points. I also think that, yes, this is exactly what I am angling for in Monarch. And it's a huge challenge.<br /><br />And yes, I'll just say it here an now that I think laziness has a little bit to do with people not liking some literature - whether it be literary or not. I admit I was lazy all through high school because I hated Shakespeare and was too lazy to figure him out. Now I'm married to somebody who quotes him all the time and knows his plays inside and out. Well, I appreciate it now. I got over that laziness quickly.<br /><br />Oh, your post about epic fantasy should be good. Just understand that I mean that I prefer real-world stories to fantasy stories/worlds. I don't mean to say that one is better than the other. It's like a food preference. I love green olives and hate yogurt. *shrugs*<br /><br /><B>BJ:</B> Well, that's the point I wanted to make. Thanks for stating it so succinctly!Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.com