tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post8191384657911269950..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: Firsts. Perhaps a Re-examining is in OrderUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-26409564905359290692010-10-17T17:09:31.858-07:002010-10-17T17:09:31.858-07:00Paperback Writer: Well, this is unfortunate. But y...Paperback Writer: Well, this is unfortunate. But you did claim some sort of difference between "literary types" and "ordinary rank and file" readers, and you inferred that nothing happens in the beginnings of "literry type" fiction, and that nobody enjoys literary classics outside academia. This is a serires of false claims and I said so and I will keep shaking my fist at people who make those claims. I apologized earlier in case I misread you, but I don't think I did misread you. I will apologize for the "fist shaking" line because you find it offensive; I will say that on this blog we use the line "I shake my fist at you" fairly often but it was foolish of me to think you'd be aware of our semi-private jokes.<br /><br />I assume nothing about you. You made claims that are false no matter how common they are, and I said so. Your literary background has no bearing on the veracity of your claims. I didn't compare our educations; I disagreed with some of your statements. You respond by calling me nasty and childish. The irony meter goes off the scale.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-34153229943305047662010-10-16T08:26:09.034-07:002010-10-16T08:26:09.034-07:00Paperbackwriter, I won't presume to speak for ...Paperbackwriter, I won't presume to speak for Scott, but I will say, for my own part, I took what he said not as condescension towards you so much as tongue-in-cheek defensive snarking after what felt (at least to me) like condescension from you towards literary readers and writers. From what I sit, it seems like a bunch of misunderstandings thrown together with a lot of strong personality.<br /><br />FWIW, which may be less than $0.02. :)C. N. Nevetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375714948653196993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-28551379974206587962010-10-16T06:22:58.271-07:002010-10-16T06:22:58.271-07:00Scott,
Your condescending little fist-shaking is n...Scott,<br />Your condescending little fist-shaking is nasty and uncalled for. You assume your superiority of knowledge over me. You have no idea what my literary background is.<br />Hence, to return your nastiness, I wave my literary degrees in my fist and tell you to read Beckett, Alasdair Gray, James Joyce, AL Kennedy, and James Kelman. The read the circular action in Lessing.<br />And that's a good start for a Saturday morning.<br />I am not impressed with your condescending tone. How do you intend to keep blog readers if you act like that when you disagree with someone? I've taught 8th graders who could disagree less childishly. I obviously hit a nerve with you.<br />Well, don't worry; I'll not trouble your silly little fist again. Fortunately, your two blog co-hosts seem to be more able to handle a variety of opinions. And all I offered was an opinion, not a critique of how you personally write.A Paperback Writerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10155962941590663738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-70701322740148569602010-10-15T08:16:09.524-07:002010-10-15T08:16:09.524-07:00@Scott - Yeah, I actually usually give away the en...@Scott - Yeah, I actually usually give away the ending the in my first sentence or two. The rest of the book is essentially explaining the conclusion to the reader that the reader didn't even really know that had gotten.C. N. Nevetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375714948653196993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-84634634734902303852010-10-15T08:10:22.275-07:002010-10-15T08:10:22.275-07:00Jamie: I can see the personal preference in that, ...<b>Jamie:</b> I can see the personal preference in that, yes! I think it's important that the first sentence sets the intended tone for the book, absolutely. Then you really do know what you're getting into.<br /><br /><b>Scott:</b> I've never thought of it that way, but I can see where you're coming from. I'm not sure I've managed to pull that off in any of my books yet.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-18423701546005679162010-10-14T15:19:52.631-07:002010-10-14T15:19:52.631-07:00I think that the first line of a novel should fore...I think that the first line of a novel should foreshadow the ending, but that's just me. And there's no way a reader will know it's foreshadowing until they get to the ending. So. Huh. Hey, look: coffee!scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-4996312989669989452010-10-14T14:59:31.282-07:002010-10-14T14:59:31.282-07:00I agree with you in principle (on principle? Whate...I agree with you in principle (on principle? Whatever). And I absolutely agree that one doesn't need to spend an inordinate amount of time on that first sentence. There's such a thing as editing your prose to death, IMO. <br /><br />If the first line is grammatically correct, I'll keep reading (I have stopped right at the first/second lines of books that mangled the English language so badly I couldn't bear read further). But I think the first line does set the general tone for the whole book...and I do prefer one that propels me into a scene, rather than coaxing me gently to keep reading. <br /><br />Just personal preference, of course.Jamie D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05486427517423813962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-13989450060973745312010-10-14T13:15:32.459-07:002010-10-14T13:15:32.459-07:00Nevets: Yes, that makes my point. The books are st...<b>Nevets:</b> Yes, that makes my point. The books are still ABOUT something, right? Stuff happens, right? The writing is good, and obviously the books sell. That should say something. <br /><br /><b>Misha:</b> Hah, yeah. I must admit I've written many mediocre sentences. Some might even think my first lines are mediocre. Oh well.<br /><br /><b>Lois:</b> I think it's great you're worrying about the hook. Like Domey, though, it's extremely stressful. I think if self-publishing Cinders taught me anything at all, it was to trust my gut and just write instead of fish. I know you and I know you're also making sure your entire story is good. :)<br /><br /><b>Anne:</b> Concept, I must agree, sells most published books. It is more difficult, I think, to sell a concept to an agent because the writing must be up to par as well.<br /><br /><b>Crimey:</b> I don't think you have much to worry about. You sure hooked me in what you sent me awhile ago!<br /><br /><b>Nevets:</b> You can sound pompous. Hehe, no worries. :)Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-53626956761357653902010-10-14T11:35:43.297-07:002010-10-14T11:35:43.297-07:00There's no way to say this without sounding po...There's no way to say this without sounding pompous. If you even think you might be able to understand my books after the first sentence, my book is going to be over your head.<br /><br />And I like it that way.C. N. Nevetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375714948653196993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-3102036006334911932010-10-14T11:28:42.968-07:002010-10-14T11:28:42.968-07:00I've been feeling a lot of pressure on my firs...I've been feeling a lot of pressure on my first lines (my first chapters as well) and this post comes as a breath of fresh air. As a reader, I've never stopped reading after one sentence and usually not after one page. I like to think that readers give more effort than six or seven words.About Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10011023963327391019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-62033825160532861372010-10-14T10:27:07.118-07:002010-10-14T10:27:07.118-07:00Thank you Nevets. And Michelle. What actually sell...Thank you Nevets. And Michelle. What actually sells most books isn't first sentences. It's concept. All those people didn't buy Dan Brown's books because of his perfect sentences. <br /><br />I also agree that it's much more important that you don't open with a misused word (or apostrophe!) or give a weather report than you write the most startling, original sentence of all time. <br /><br />And don't agonize if the book isn't even finished yet. The first sentence should be the last sentence you write.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-3303824004282039692010-10-14T10:22:00.883-07:002010-10-14T10:22:00.883-07:00Lois, the hook mantra is far too stressful for me....Lois, the hook mantra is far too stressful for me. Good luck!Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-7476730913226285412010-10-14T10:11:39.236-07:002010-10-14T10:11:39.236-07:00Michelle, I agree that, if the book is really well...Michelle, I agree that, if the book is really well written, it would be highly unlikely for the first few sentences to be bad. I'm just focused right now on the whole hook 'em early mantra. <br /><br />Scott, I hope you're right. It's a lot of pressure for my 6 little words to withstand.lotusgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663641163048764869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-12963911622611108552010-10-14T10:11:36.493-07:002010-10-14T10:11:36.493-07:00Well said.
What is the use of one excellent sent...Well said. <br /><br />What is the use of one excellent sentence when it is lost in a sea of mediocre stories? <br /><br />:-)Misha Gerrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06364173848456424521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-14764242701219486192010-10-14T10:02:15.732-07:002010-10-14T10:02:15.732-07:00So I was curious, and at lunch I randomly pulled a...So I was curious, and at lunch I randomly pulled a bunch of best-selling mass market fiction novels off my book shelves and looked at how they started. Summary findings:<br /><br />1) Almost every one of them actually started with a prologue and/or an introduction. Heh. Some of those were insanely tedious and boring background and context creation. (Jurassic Park was the worst offender.)<br /><br />2) Almost every first line did little more than what Alex's editor had him do: establish the setting and foreshadow the action in a succinct, dry fashion.<br /><br />3) A bare handful started out with something like a hook, and most of those were extremely trite. (Cussler's Atlantis rising: "The intruder came from beyond").<br /><br />4) None of them would have passed most of the tests of muster and how to start a book according to conventional wisdom, the internet, and writers' conferences. No hook. The real plot didn't start within the first 5 to 10 pages. Used prologues, prefaces, and introductions.<br /><br />They were, simply put, well-written and interesting enough for countless people to read.C. N. Nevetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375714948653196993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-3337667330395406332010-10-14T09:59:04.395-07:002010-10-14T09:59:04.395-07:00Scott: I get a bit ruffled at comments regarding l...<b>Scott:</b> I get a bit ruffled at comments regarding literary fiction in any negative light whatsoever. I probably shouldn't, but I do.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-18501495110278549122010-10-14T09:55:27.319-07:002010-10-14T09:55:27.319-07:00Michelle: Oh, I'm just cranky and twitchy and ...Michelle: Oh, I'm just cranky and twitchy and lately oversensitive about disparaging comments regarding literary fiction.<br /><br />Paperback Writer: I'm just cranky and twitchy and I do apologize. I understand that adolescents are likely not going to read for the beauty of language. When I was 15 I would never have picked up Proust. "This is just about some dumb French guy trying to fall asleep," I'd have said. "Duh."<br /><br />Lois: I'm willing to bet that the editor was talking more about <i>bad</i> writing than anything else. Most of the unpublished novels agents and editors see are going to stay forever unpublished because the writing is just awful. If someone can put together a readable paragraph, they're already ahead of the competition. I know that if the first sentence or two of something are either bad writing or just plain stupid, I won't want to read the rest of it. But that's really not the same thing, I don't think, as the idea that we have to have some sort of first line that will move Heaven and Earth.<br /><br />And, as Alex says, your first line might well change anyway.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-29455812951137588192010-10-14T09:44:54.627-07:002010-10-14T09:44:54.627-07:00Lois: Also, the way I see it, you said the agent s...<b>Lois:</b> Also, the way I see it, you said the agent said this:<br /><br /><i>There's a point where, if she loves the premise and the writing, she will overlook some things but the overall piece has to be strong.</i><br /><br />So what I'm hearing here is that ALL the writing needs to be good, not just the first parts of the story. It really isn't about the first sentence at all - the way I'm seeing it.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-67684332283932914912010-10-14T09:39:27.812-07:002010-10-14T09:39:27.812-07:00Lois: Of course you can differ! I see what you'...<b>Lois:</b> Of course you can differ! I see what you're saying, but I must argue that if I hate a first sentence that badly it's probably because it wasn't written well. If the 2nd and 3rd and 4th sentences aren't written well, either, it probably means there are much, much larger problems with the work than the first sentences/paragraph and of course the agent would put it down.<br /><br />I honestly think all this talk about first sentences is really about something larger - writing well. If you're a good enough writer to get an entire novel out and have it work, <i>your first sentence will work.</i> If the entire book is excellent except those first few sentences or paragraphs, that would be very strange.<br /><br />See, here is where I don't think you have to worry. You say it right here: "but I believe the reality of finding an agent and an editor requires me to hook them right up front and keep them interested by delivering on those promises I make in the first sentence, paragraph, page, and chapter."<br /><br />If you truly believe that, then yes, your first sentence, paragraph, page, and chapter MUST be a hook and they MUST be good and deliver. Yes. That means the rest of the book MUST be good and deliver. If it does then obviously the first part will, too. See? It's all connected. This is why I believe a writer must put the same amount of emphasis on the entire work and not emphasize the beginning so much.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-17270517758574754632010-10-14T09:33:15.549-07:002010-10-14T09:33:15.549-07:00Can I just beg to differ for a moment? A small, di...Can I just beg to differ for a moment? A small, dissenting voice. I see what you're saying and loved your argument, but, at the conference I went to in September, an editor emphasized the importance of the first sentence and the 2nd sentence. If she doesn't like the first sentence, she will never get to the 2nd. If she doesn't like the 2nd, she will not get to the 3rd, and so on. There's a point where, if she loves the premise and the writing, she will overlook some things but the overall piece has to be strong. <br /><br />Right now I'm stressing over this and would love for there not to be so much pressure on my first sentence, paragraph, page, chapter, but I believe the reality of finding an agent and an editor requires me to hook them right up front and keep them interested by delivering on those promises I make in the first sentence, paragraph, page, and chapter.lotusgirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06663641163048764869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-86054523985100046552010-10-14T09:32:43.639-07:002010-10-14T09:32:43.639-07:00Davin: I've taken a lot of pressure off myself...<b>Davin:</b> I've taken a lot of pressure off myself to have hooks as well. I really like what Chuck says down below"<br /><br /><b>If the story is good enough, the reader will stay. If not, then all the clever tricks in the world won't help.</b><br /><br />THAT is what I think I was after in this post. Tricks. I hate that a "hook has to feel like a trick."<br /><br />You know? If the story is going to catch a reader's attention and the writer has told that story well (that would include making something happen in the beginning, of course, because stories should be about something happening), the rest is subjective. I don't want a reader to pick up my book because I tricked them into it with a fancy hook.<br /><br /><b>Chuck:</b> Excellent point about not all the tricks in the world helping. I agree! I talked about you above. :)<br /><br /><b>Scott:</b> I'm afraid Paperback picked that tone up in my post. I didn't mean it to come out that way, but I think it can be interpreted that way - but what I was saying is that as a judge for entries, I always keep reading. That's in my second-nature to keep reading. It's probably not second-nature for young readers to keep reading, though.<br /><br />Yes, I agree that something has to happen. Of course it does. I just don't think it has to be done disconnected from the rest of the story or with some fancy trick like I talked about up above.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-35317214252801159322010-10-14T09:21:31.836-07:002010-10-14T09:21:31.836-07:00I will agree with Paperback only so far as to say ...I will agree with Paperback only so far as to say that <i>the first thing that happens</i> in a book has to get the reader's attention. Something has to happen. <br /><br />Also, I sneer at the phrase "literary types whose intended audience is comprised of other literary types" because that is just a misrepresentation of both literary fiction and those who read it. Something has to happen in literary fiction, just as it has to happen in all fiction. I shake my literary fist at you, Paperback Writer. Watch it.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-74908358297668162432010-10-14T09:21:10.492-07:002010-10-14T09:21:10.492-07:00My favorite first line has always been:
The bear&...My favorite first line has always been:<br /><br />The bear's name was State o' Maine.<br /><br />That's from John Irving's Hotel New Hampshire, a great book.<br /><br />I try for a hook within the first paragraph but I don't really stress over it. If the story is good enough, the reader will stay. If not, then all the clever tricks in the world won't help.<br /><br />Excellent post.Chuck H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07266126276487521854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-13406935397341337262010-10-14T09:19:08.790-07:002010-10-14T09:19:08.790-07:00Michelle, This is great: "Actually, I think a...Michelle, This is great: "Actually, I think all those great first lines up there aren't up there because the lines are so fantastic so much as the stories themselves are fantastic."<br /><br />I think all of the first sentences were chosen AFTER the chooser was aware of the whole book. That's a very thing than when you first discover a story. The first line of a story may or may not be excellent. It's hard to tell without knowing the rest of it.<br /><br />I've taken a lot of pressure off myself regarding first lines. There's a little bit of pressure to make the first paragraph interesting, but I've stopped worrying about things like "hooks".Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-9184828486329480672010-10-14T08:45:49.753-07:002010-10-14T08:45:49.753-07:00Michelle - here's the link:
http://scott-awri...Michelle - here's the link: <br />http://scott-awritersblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/first-chapters.htmlScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06905515473737579937noreply@blogger.com