tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post2621914133921462233..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: Dark Literature and Young Readers ... or, You Know, Readers in General, TooUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-29457761179965923222011-06-07T09:55:39.495-07:002011-06-07T09:55:39.495-07:00Tara: I really appreciated your post! It's tru...<b>Tara:</b> I really appreciated your post! It's true that tone makes a huge, huge difference. It isn't so much about the subject as it is about how it's told and handled, and you don't really see that from a cover on a book, or sometimes even from the back blurb. I think that's where that lady in the bookstore ran into a problem - her perception of what's out there.<br /><br /><b>McKenzie:</b> Good points! A lot of people don't admit that they attracted to sad things, though. Sometimes I wonder how prevalent it is. Who knows. <br /><br /><b>Annie:</b> It's a good point about challenging the way we think. You also have to look at how society is right now and how so many people are unsure about the future, about wars going on, about our economic stability. That rubs off on the things we produce, and it often has to be even stronger than what our real fears are so that it does challenge how we're thinking. I'm just thinking out loud, but I like the direction you've got me in!<br /><br /><b>Rick:</b> Ah, point taken! Mass illiteracy sounds worse than dark literature to me. That would lead to much worse things. Do you think any of those crimes you spoke about came from those people hiding in their homes reading dark paranormal fiction? Possible, but not likely, in my opinion.<br /><br /><b>Helle:</b> Everyone keeps telling me the world isn't darker now than it was in the past. I can see it both ways, but I won't go there. It's probably more a matter of perception than anything else. There's no physical barometer for that kind of thing.<br /><br />I love what you say at the end of your comment about which kids are the ones who are more likely to get into trouble. :)<br /><br /><b>Martin:</b> Exactly. :)<br /><br /><b>April:</b> Yeah, we can't fix the world in one fell swoop, that's for sure. We'd never get everyone to agree on what an ideal world is, anyway. Many of the people out there would say it contains dark fiction. :)Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-76821752872848371242011-06-07T05:37:12.652-07:002011-06-07T05:37:12.652-07:00Excellent post, and your point is very well made. ...Excellent post, and your point is very well made. And I totally agree.<br /><br />It's a terrifying world out there. I try not to think about it too much. I have a 7-year old, and she's so beautiful and intelligent and innocent, and it scares the heck out of me to think about the evil she might be exposed to, no matter how good we are as parents. We can only shelter her so much...and we can't shelter her too much either. There's a line we have to draw, and I think you said it perfectly - the most important thing you can do is raise your child to be comfortable coming to you about ANYthing.<br /><br />The world is a scary place. I understand why literature, even YA, reflects that. This is the world in which we're living. Though I, myself, can't write what I'd consider dark literature because I can't handle the emotional drain it would have on me, I understand authors that feel the need to do so. And tone is the major thing that makes a work of literature dark. You can write about anything and make it light and fluffy...or you can write about that same thing and make it dark and scary.<br /><br />But the main problem definitely doesn't stem from writing. I think the books out there reflect society as it is. It doesn't create a dark (or light and fluffy) society. <br /><br />It's sad, but the best we can do is raise our children as best we can. We can't fix the world.<br /><br />Though, then again, perhaps writing is our opportunity...perhaps it's our duty as writers...to try to brighten this dark world.April Plummerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12000526454256802504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-10170124347642156092011-06-07T04:36:22.084-07:002011-06-07T04:36:22.084-07:00DARK? Nothing new there. Most fairy tales are da...DARK? Nothing new there. Most fairy tales are dark and gruesome, with people getting fried, boiled, tortured and eaten. not forgetting those that have been trapped in a tower for decades or poisoned by evil parents.<br /><br />If these jopurnalists believe that writing is too dark, then they ought to look at the news they report and how they report it before pointing a finger elsewhere.Martin Willoughbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05605554706836638988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-50773699953815322222011-06-07T03:18:36.718-07:002011-06-07T03:18:36.718-07:00Every generation always believes that the world is...Every generation always believes that the world is a darker place than it has been in the past. I am a social historian, and I can assure you that the world is most certainly not!<br /><br />As far as the concerns over dark YA fiction go, people should go read a few Hans Christian Anderson or Brothers Grimm fairytales in their original formats. There's some darkness for you. In any case, I am inclined to worry about the kids who are not reading at all than the ones spending their free time reading dark YA stuff, I know which ones I think are more likely to get into trouble.Helle Kristine Tumbridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14445172453816903533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-43022816364804816372011-06-06T20:57:37.716-07:002011-06-06T20:57:37.716-07:00And of course there is an antidote for the deluge ...And of course there is an antidote for the deluge of books-our-kids-should-not-read being forced upon them by the money-grubbing publishing industry:<br /><br />Mass illiteracy.Rick Daleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05173516899130463413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-5436088394570415192011-06-06T20:20:36.754-07:002011-06-06T20:20:36.754-07:00I don't think the world is any darker these da...I don't think the world is any darker these days than its been throughout history. What's communicated may be more frequent, but that is a reflection of today's reality, not a precursor.<br /><br />I think the fear is that reading dark material introduces dark thoughts into innocent minds, and the next step will be for young people to act out on those thoughts. I don't believe that will happen, though. While I find Hannibal Lector to be one of the most intriguing antagonists in modern literature, I do not want to go out and kill and eat people. <br /><br />A political pundit using aggressive rhetoric does not lead to shootings and murder. An unbalanced individual lacking proper intervention does. The same can be said for a dark-themed novel, or a rock song. THE CATCHER IN THE RYE did not kill John Lennon. Ozzy Osborne did not drive kids to suicide.<br /><br />The depths of human degredation have been plumbed by authors before. Marquis de Sade, anyone? <br /><br />I recently read Cormac McCarthy's "Child of God" and believe me, there are some dark themes exposed in that narrative. Murder, rape, necrophelia...All things you can also find on the evening news. <br /><br />I live in Ohio, and we have a man on trial who raped, murdered and dismembered 11 women. We also recently had a lunatic tree trimmer that murdered two women and a young boy, chopped them up and stuffed them in a tree. In Europe there are suicidal people selling their bodies to cannibals. Merciless killing of innocents and other wartime atrocities. And this is not new.<br /><br />Here's a bible story, let me know if this qualifies as "dark":<br /><br />Saul tells David that, in order to win the right to wed his daughter, David must bring him the foreskins of 100 Philistines. David then kills and circumsizes 200 Philistines, bringing home the foreskins and counting them out for the king.<br /><br />Yes, dark literature has been around for quite some time...Rick Daleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05173516899130463413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-13340831237580821762011-06-06T18:50:45.635-07:002011-06-06T18:50:45.635-07:00I am soooo out of the YA fiction loop. But that...I am soooo out of the YA fiction loop. But that's because I took myself out of it.<br /><br />Re: the WSJ article, I haven't read or heard of any of those books. Maybe some of them are appropriately dark, as in written in the right tone for the story. But when I see a million billion YA books at B&N with covers depicting the same story over and over, I just think: bandwagon. And sensationalism. The news is all sensationalism. I can't even read a weather article without words like "devastating," "harrowing," "wreaked death," and "terror." <br /><br />It seems like gruesome sells. Nevermind writing well or telling a good story. I'm not saying all dark YA lit has bad writing or stories (Speak is wonderful!), but if these people are writing these books to give a voice to teens and/or let them know they're not alone, at least they could be less sloppy. <br />Taken from the WSJ article: <i>In Jackie Morse Kessler's gruesome but inventive 2011 take on a girl's struggle with self-injury, "Rage," teenage Missy's secret cutting turns nightmarish after she is the victim of a sadistic sexual prank. "She had sliced her arms to ribbons, but the badness remained, staining her insides like cancer. She had gouged her belly until it was a mess of meat and blood, but she still couldn't breathe." Missy survives, but only after a stint as one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.</i><br /><br />No way. If her arm was sliced to ribbons or her belly was a mess of meat and blood, she would be dead. <br /><br />Also, I think a story about parents being afraid for their children sounds interesting. B/c I hadn't thought of that. Especially in this context. I think the best stories are the ones that challenge (not to be confused with arguing against) my thinking.Annie Loudenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008836459417708235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-77563383965505151592011-06-06T18:28:51.824-07:002011-06-06T18:28:51.824-07:00Well, here's my thinking...
Dark stories are e...Well, here's my thinking...<br />Dark stories are emotionally powerful and enchanting. Sometimes we like to read things like that to make ourselves feel better, knowing we don't have it as bad as the folks in a dark story.There is something magical about a depressing world so different yet similar to our own. That's why it's common, because people are attracted to sad things.McKenzie McCannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11707799179783394809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-80329317569713618532011-06-06T14:32:30.759-07:002011-06-06T14:32:30.759-07:00Oops, I meant to include the link to the rest of ...Oops, I meant to include the link to <a href="http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/2011/06/i-found-out-about-this-article-in-wall.html" rel="nofollow"> the rest of my profound ramblings. </a>Tara Mayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09095632631554776002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-28510668676731019952011-06-06T14:27:06.476-07:002011-06-06T14:27:06.476-07:00I agree with Michelle, that there is absolutely a ...I agree with Michelle, that there is absolutely a difference between tone and subject matter. I recently finished Speak a young adult novel (from about 10 year ago) that is about a girl who was raped just before she started highschool. So, the subject is dark, I suppose. Yet, I personally wouldn't call it a dark novel.<br /><br />I wrote too long a comment, so I tossed it up as today's blog post. <br /><br />@ Scott. "That the people writing these dark YA books would rather write happy tales? "<br /><br />IMHO, I think people only *market* many of these dark books as YA for reasons to do with the publishing industry. They would still write them dark, but call them adult. Just think. If Nabakov were writing Lolita today, he'd be told it's YA because Lolita is twelve.Tara Mayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09095632631554776002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-62044497086135087202011-06-06T14:10:15.061-07:002011-06-06T14:10:15.061-07:00Eric: So you argue that people are only writing al...Eric: So you argue that people are only writing all these dark novels because of the publishing industry? That people only buy them because they're what's on the shelves? That kids only read them because that's what their parents give them? And that meanwhile the majority of readers and writers want something optimistic? That the people writing these dark YA books would rather write happy tales? <br /><br />"since the power structure we live under seems to do very little to improve things around us, people just accept what's available" is a pretty good premise for a dystopian novel. Like <i>1984,</i> maybe.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-7156931564309532222011-06-06T13:15:12.988-07:002011-06-06T13:15:12.988-07:00Scott - Michelle gets to my point however, that I ...Scott - Michelle gets to my point however, that I don't believe it's an issue. Parents need to be parents, as she says.<br /><br />I'll have to bow to your (or anyone else's) memory with regards to the 50's and 60's literature however, as I don't honestly know if this is true or not. <br /><br />I disagree with your assertion that people don't <em>believe</em> more inspirational stories however. A well-written story carries itself, regardless of the cultural or societal temperature (assuming it's published, marketed, etc). The Twilight-esque type books notwithstanding (by this I mean poorly written books that still do well), good writing is good writing and I do believe that's enough for people to enjoy a given work and get lost in the story. I can't honestly explain why it seems that people enjoy misery and relish tragedy these days. Intellectually it makes no sense to me. But I'm not buying it that the problem is cynicism and the belief that there are no better stories out there waiting to be told. Are we really at a point in human history where despair is the only appropriate choice? I refuse to believe it and I don't think the majority of people do either. I argue instead that people are aching for something inspirational to read and yet the only thing being churned out by <em>the machine</em> is tragedy (or worse, telling the same stories over and over with different actors). And since the power structure we live under seems to do very little to improve things around us, people just accept what's available.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823808700523297184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-35027532196666429742011-06-06T12:24:15.712-07:002011-06-06T12:24:15.712-07:00Eric: I think that if you look at a lot of the fic...Eric: I think that if you look at a lot of the fiction (especially genre fiction) of the late 50s and early 60s, you'll see a flood of very dark stuff.<br /><br />I don't think it's that people don't <i>want</i> "stories about heroism and inspirational deeds" so much as people don't necessarily <i>believe</i> those sorts of stories right now. Certainly most Americans are cynical about heroism and nationalism and are worried deeply about the economy and the safety of the world in general. So I think that "optimistic" stories and "news" are just not greeted with trust by the public, and what's not being addressed is the well of distrust and anxiety pooling up under the shiny veneer of "uplifting" media.<br /><br />I write tragedies. Not because I want to bring people down, but because I think people already see the world as tragic, even if they don't admit it. And I want to talk about that, not anaesthetize myself with happy stories. I don't think I'm alone in this.<br /><br />I will say that I don't know that the world is a scarier place than it was 20 years ago. But in America at least, I can't recall a time of greater uncertainty. For the first time in my life, America is not the dominant world power. We don't have the healthiest economy and we aren't necessarily the leaders in development or productivity et cetera. All the parents I know are more worried about their kids than my parents were.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-51213126115940624312011-06-06T12:21:15.462-07:002011-06-06T12:21:15.462-07:00Simon: Yes, it was predictable, absolutely. I also...<b>Simon:</b> Yes, it was predictable, absolutely. I also agree that people should be allowed to voice their opinions. I think that article was mainly problematic, though, because she was pointing fingers at specific authors. That's fine to do except when it feels like it's bashing, in a way. Her opinion is fine. I even agree with some of her points. I think her tone and the way she went about things is what caused the majority of the stir.<br /><br />Still, that's all beating around the bush. The real issues are being ignored. Are they even issues, though? Parents need to be parents and talk to their kids about what's out there instead of solely letting them discover things in books, and when we do run across dark things in our entertainment and art, we're equipped to deal with it in a way that helps us see the point of why it's there. I know I'd have a danged hard time writing ANYTHING without those darker elements and subjects. They are what make a story worth telling - and usually how I highlight the more positive aspects.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-21607416190519203932011-06-06T11:55:56.465-07:002011-06-06T11:55:56.465-07:00I get what you're saying Scott, but the questi...I get what you're saying Scott, but the question of why there is dark writing doesn't matter to me. To me, it's irrelevant if there are plenty of books out there that are dark or grim. If I don't want my kids reading dark writing in YA, I just won't have them reading those kinds of books.<br /><br />Having said that, I do believe there is more of a tendency today to focus on the darker aspects of life (not just in writing either). This would be the reason why we continue to see reality shows and Jerry Springer, why the news talks about 10 bad stories before casually mentioning one good "fluff" piece. We as a society (in the US anyway) continue to focus on the darker aspects of life rather than trying to inspire. I don't believe there are less stories about heroism and inspirational deeds; I just don't think people are wanting to write them or that readers are asking to read them.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823808700523297184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-39684299269682543092011-06-06T10:46:32.109-07:002011-06-06T10:46:32.109-07:00@Simon: "it was so predictable"
That...@Simon: "it was so predictable"<br /><br />That's sort of the bigger point that I think Michelle may be getting at. Everyone's willing to flap their hands at the violence and sex in YA books, but nobody's asking "why are people writing this?" Because there are reasons people are writing these books that have nothing to do with selling a lot of books.<br /><br />The stereotype is that YA books are written by women, mostly women aged 30-50 who have children of their own. Let's assume for the moment that this stereotype is true. Why are all these moms writing about these subjects? To hit it big in the marketplace? Really? Or is there some kind of conversation (or shouting, maybe) going on beneath the surface of our culture? Why don't we have a look at that? Why don't we listen more carefully?scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-1125331257803293362011-06-06T10:28:19.862-07:002011-06-06T10:28:19.862-07:00See, what I don't like about the kerfuffle is ...See, what I don't like about the kerfuffle is that it was so predictable. You think the WSJ editors didn't know that running that kind of op-ed would spark controversy? They sure as hell did.<br /><br />Like Dorney says a few days ago, these writing community pile-ons are ugly, whether it's on a writer who for some reason decided to lash out at a reviewer, or on someone who publishes an opinion that smacks of censorship. I feel as though it's groupthink, and I detest groupthink.<br /><br />Why can't we be fine with people having opinions that differ from our own? I affirm that woman's right to express her opinion, and I affirm the rights of her detractors to the same. But this mass-mobilization of the book blogosphere leaves a bad taste in my mouth.<br /><br />(My comments, of course, don't apply to this post, which I found thoughtful, well-considered, and not at all strident.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-83846650874469832152011-06-06T10:22:25.241-07:002011-06-06T10:22:25.241-07:00Well said, Davin. I think that's an important ...Well said, Davin. I think that's an important point.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-89896175790623642292011-06-06T10:20:40.455-07:002011-06-06T10:20:40.455-07:00I probably shouldn't say anything on this topi...I probably shouldn't say anything on this topic since I'm not familiar with the books, nor am I familiar with modern day YA readers. But the one thing that comes to mind is what has always justified my own exploration of dark topics: understanding. To me, if the argument for writing about dark topics is to expose young people to the read world, then the books should delve into the topics in a deep way so that readers understand the human side of things. This is what happens for me when I visit an old internment camp, or when I read the transcripts of a young girl who was locked up by kidnappers for two decades. The details of the crimes have a certain shock value that can be intriguing. But the thing that I feel makes the human heart grow goes beyond the shocking details.<br /><br />Having said that, I'm okay with writers writing about whatever they want for whatever reason.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-47556863129301108112011-06-06T10:02:46.320-07:002011-06-06T10:02:46.320-07:00Laura: That was the idea, yes. I think too many pe...<b>Laura:</b> That was the idea, yes. I think too many people are only looking at the surface issues of that article and getting offended. Sadly.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-79656104406273094182011-06-06T10:01:40.016-07:002011-06-06T10:01:40.016-07:00Excellently said, Michelle. I think you're the...Excellently said, Michelle. I think you're the first person who asked, "Where's the dark coming from?" instead of why the dark is there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-34654306409970791042011-06-06T10:00:23.148-07:002011-06-06T10:00:23.148-07:00Eric: From a religious standpoint, I think "d...<b>Eric:</b> From a religious standpoint, I think "dark" and "evil" can be two very different things, especially when it comes to forms of art like literature. I think everyone is talking about this because it's bringing up a deeper issue than anyone is willing to admit.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-67919939120843905702011-06-06T09:58:42.679-07:002011-06-06T09:58:42.679-07:00Wow, everyone's talking about this one. I had...Wow, everyone's talking about this one. I had an offshoot post about it I just put up as well. I don't know that I agree with you as far as the world in general being darker. I do agree that we seem to focus on that as a society more and more though, as if we've lost the ability to realize how much more fun it is to hear about good things. This is why I don't watch the news, because it's rare that they ever report on anything uplifting. Anyway, as you said, the discussion of how evil the world is right now would be a whole other post LOL.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823808700523297184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-52934842274442764512011-06-06T09:28:45.174-07:002011-06-06T09:28:45.174-07:00Matthew: That makes complete sense, yes. She even ...<b>Matthew:</b> That makes complete sense, yes. She even brings that up in her article, I think, about banned books. I don't think ratings are THE SOLUTION, by any means, but it would make things a little easier for parents trying to sift through everything.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-32631982580606087992011-06-06T09:27:04.077-07:002011-06-06T09:27:04.077-07:00Michelle: No, the ratings themselves aren't a ...<b>Michelle:</b> No, the ratings themselves aren't a bad thing, but there's a perception that slapping a rating on something means the problem will instantly go away. When in fact, the real event will probably mean teens will want to see/read/play that banned thing all the more and they <i>will</i> find a way to do so. <br /><br />I'm not saying that's the perception here, but it strikes me that lawmakers tend to call for ratings on entertainment so they can appear they're tough without actually <i>being</i> tough. Shortcuts, in essence.Matthew Delmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452378192874048547noreply@blogger.com