tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post300091692147284237..comments2023-08-27T04:22:55.468-07:00Comments on The Literary Lab: Lies You BelieveUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-51678608158768213022011-02-11T11:53:35.249-08:002011-02-11T11:53:35.249-08:00I'm glad I finally found this post! :) It'...I'm glad I finally found this post! :) It's wonderful. And I don't think I've ever found a theme sooner than halfway through a book. Maybe on the next one I write...Susan Kaye Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07348197999397141067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-25924638498203680562011-02-09T12:09:25.749-08:002011-02-09T12:09:25.749-08:00Thank you, Julie and Deniz! Isn't it a great r...Thank you, Julie and Deniz! Isn't it a great relief to know you don't have to follow rules once you know them? Hehe!Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-54491966934984927682011-02-05T13:16:46.790-08:002011-02-05T13:16:46.790-08:00Love it! Especially the giving the reader room to ...Love it! Especially the giving the reader room to breathe. I've definitely crammed way too much into my opening scenes...Deniz Bevanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17134553551048836979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-46905200720795692222011-02-04T18:58:55.503-08:002011-02-04T18:58:55.503-08:00I truly appreciate this list. I've read my ow...I truly appreciate this list. I've read my own MS so many times I'm getting a little bored, but my critique group isn't. I guess that's a good sign.Julie Musilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02150454913885915017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-26314483399308223992011-02-04T15:29:44.557-08:002011-02-04T15:29:44.557-08:00@Scott: You can count me in your audience. :)
If ...@Scott: You can count me in your audience. :)<br /><br />If someone described my work as "pulp fiction" it would be as great an honor as if someone called yours "a literary masterpiece."<br /><br />We all have our dreams. :)Andrew Rosenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-17027788073683786242011-02-04T15:02:19.209-08:002011-02-04T15:02:19.209-08:00Andrew: Certain types of stories are more effectiv...Andrew: Certain types of stories are more effective when the level of dramatic tension is kept high. No question about it. Some people like those kinds of stories more than they like any other kind. And good for them that there are writers who write them.<br /><br />I think that the "I meant that if no one had ever heard of them, would they still sell today." argument is unsolvable and kind of pointless. Every debut author was unknown. Lots of experimental, cutting-edge art novels are being published. If you look at the litary/art novels from the past to the present on a year-by-year basis, I'll bet that you'll find that more of them are being published now than there were back in the so-called "golden age." Whichever golden age you choose to pick. I'm pretty sure that my literary/art novels are going to be published. I don't look to the marketplace for writing advice.<br /><br />But then, when you also get a book deal, you'll likely sell way more copies than I will, because of our choices of genre. I'm fine with that and I realize that the idea that I write for a small audience influences my attitudes about writing and books in general. Them's the breaks.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-18957857069025369282011-02-04T14:51:47.508-08:002011-02-04T14:51:47.508-08:00Yeesh I'm getting comments faster than I can r...Yeesh I'm getting comments faster than I can reply!<br /><br />@Scott: You do realize those are famous authors...and we're not. <br />Of course they're going to sell. I meant that if no one had ever heard of them, would they still sell today.<br /><br />I'm coming from a "what can I do to make my book marketable" POV and tension is a <i>tool</i> I can use to enhance my novel's marketability. It's not the only tool. "Every page" is just a way to keep the narrative lively.<br />Can you have description that's there for it's own sake? Yes, of course. I'm totally with you that there are no rules. Are there readers and editors out there who appreciate it? Of course. <br />It really comes down to your goals as a writer. My goals are to create a gripping narrative that keep people up reading late into the night. My <i>strategy</i> is to use tension among other things.<br /><br />So maybe can we agree that tension is a good tool for strengthening many stories?Andrew Rosenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-86369238641448012522011-02-04T14:33:31.901-08:002011-02-04T14:33:31.901-08:00Nevets: I think it's an absolutely okay thing,...<b>Nevets:</b> I think it's an absolutely okay thing, yes. Writers need to chill out more when it comes to these guidelines and rules. Me included.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-40068831043190870112011-02-04T14:32:11.572-08:002011-02-04T14:32:11.572-08:00FWIW, I just looked through several novels of the ...FWIW, I just looked through several novels of the past 20 years and I could find pages without tension on them in every one. Some were even thrillers.<br /><br />I'm not trying to downplay suspense and tension, honestly, nor trying to deny that the reading market has changed. <br /><br />Just saying that even today some description and some breathing space is an okay thing.C. N. Nevetshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375714948653196993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-6141353578700286762011-02-04T14:28:42.335-08:002011-02-04T14:28:42.335-08:00Andrew: I will go check out your post. I used to b...<b>Andrew:</b> I will go check out your post. I used to believe in the tension on every page thing until I stopped and really thought about what art is to me. Not all art has to entertain. Some of the best art and books I've ever read made me think and question things. Most of that came from tension in the book, but not on every page. I think readers these days are simply getting lazier as readers. They want tension on every page, but maybe we're doing a disservice to ourselves thinking that is something that must be done 100% of the time.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-65952984895625892702011-02-04T14:25:04.063-08:002011-02-04T14:25:04.063-08:00Scott, I think you'll be one of them one day. ...Scott, I think you'll be one of them one day. Hey, look, two agents have taken your work and now it's on submission. That says something, because from what I've read of yours there isn't tension/suspense on every page, yet I'm still really into the book and fascinated with the story, the writing, and the characters.Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-28590921774588763482011-02-04T14:23:15.502-08:002011-02-04T14:23:15.502-08:00Andrew: Have a look at last year's Pulitzer Pr...Andrew: Have a look at last year's Pulitzer Prize winner. Have a look at anything by Michel Houellebeque, a best-selling and prize-winning French writer. Have a look beyond commercial/genre fiction, in today's market. You'll see that you're mistaken.<br /><br />Also, all of those authors I mention are still in print, in new (and multiple) editions every year, and they sell in respectable numbers. Because readers read them. Today. And they buy them in today's market.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-89080427254997311722011-02-04T14:06:29.267-08:002011-02-04T14:06:29.267-08:00@Scott: Ahh, but would their "masterpieces&qu...@Scott: Ahh, but would their "masterpieces" sell in today's market? <br />The problem with your examples is that they were written for a different market with different expectations. But all of us are trying to sell into <i>today's</i> market that carries perhaps different expectations for pacing, plot development, etc.<br />So I'd much rather try to write like today's authors than yesterday's...but I still respect the fact that those were great writers that I can learn from.Andrew Rosenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-43681800278577027522011-02-04T11:35:58.216-08:002011-02-04T11:35:58.216-08:00Andrew: Saying Cervantes or Sterne or Melville or ...Andrew: Saying Cervantes or Sterne or Melville or Thurber or Joyce or Beckett et cetera did something isn't the same as saying we have to write like them. It's saying that if they obeyed the "suspense on every page" rule, they'd not have written their masterpieces and that would be a loss. So no conflict that I see.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-9793817886011739322011-02-04T11:20:56.706-08:002011-02-04T11:20:56.706-08:00@Michelle, @Leah, @scott:
I threw up my own interp...@Michelle, @Leah, @scott:<br />I threw up my own interpretation of the "tension" issue on my blog. Would love to hear your thoughts.<br /><br />@scott: Your examples seem to conflict with lie #2, so which is it?Andrew Rosenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09215333688753781447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-74242703840379532702011-02-04T10:29:15.908-08:002011-02-04T10:29:15.908-08:00I would argue that "suspense" on every p...I would argue that "suspense" on every page isn't necessary either. Sometimes you just want to read something interesting (even if it's unrelated to the story) or written in pretty language. Or just a funny aside (see Cervantes or Sterne or Melville or Thurber or Joyce or Beckett et cetera).scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-56702956920697553002011-02-04T09:58:46.283-08:002011-02-04T09:58:46.283-08:00Loren: Well, if you say so. :)
Leah: Excellent, y...<b>Loren:</b> Well, if you say so. :)<br /><br /><b>Leah:</b> Excellent, yes! We should know these "lies," or "guidelnes," or whatever they are, but we shouldn't build walls with them. Thank you for your comment!Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-52240712697603812122011-02-04T09:39:40.024-08:002011-02-04T09:39:40.024-08:00Leah, Great comment.Leah, Great comment.Davin Malasarnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09385823575081492949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-56319008364061446032011-02-04T09:35:12.420-08:002011-02-04T09:35:12.420-08:00I tend to agree with Andrew Rosenberg that there&#...I tend to agree with <b>Andrew Rosenberg</b> that there's a kernel of truth in most of these "lies," but it's been so abused, misinterpreted, and misapplied over time that it's difficult to salvage.<br /><br />I think what we should be saying is, "Here are some guidelines. They're not laws written in stone--they just help you avoid common beginner mistakes. But you should treat them like rules until you are ready to intelligently and deliberately break them, because that's what the best writers have done."<br /><br />Also, regarding "tension on every page"--while I think it's largely misapplied junk advice that comes from the How To Write a Bestselling [Whatever] industry, there's definitely some truth to it. Tension on every page doesn't have to mean ticking bombs and tawdry flirting--it means there's something unresolved that the reader wants to know, something that keeps them in suspense. It doesn't have to be a pressing, immediate issue. Who are X's real parents? Why did Y dump Z five years ago without explanation? Will P ever tell Q that the dog didn't run away, but got run over? Is R an unreliable narrator?<br /><br />Anyway, great post. What it comes down to is knowing the "rules" well enough to break them with purpose, IMO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-75552258153028001022011-02-04T07:39:17.137-08:002011-02-04T07:39:17.137-08:00But but but number nine is true!But but but number nine is <i>true</i>!Loren Eatonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12488412683340389286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-84003110089432160712011-02-04T06:17:59.118-08:002011-02-04T06:17:59.118-08:00Ashley: I'm so happy the list appealed to you!...<b>Ashley:</b> I'm so happy the list appealed to you! I think #1 is my biggest pet peeve, which is why I put it as #1. I think it needs some redefining, mostly.<br /><br /><b>Gerald:</b> Thanks for your link. Scott just saw the URL and thought spam, is all. Thanks for reading the post and visiting our blog!<br /><br /><b>Amber:</b> Me, too!<br /><br /><b>writergal:</b> Hehe, yes, it is more fun to use our imaginations and discover whole new worlds we've never experienced before. :)<br /><br /><b>Anne:</b> We definitely have to know the "lies" so we are aware of them, yes. We also have to know them to see if they work for us or not.<br /><br />Yes about Nathan's contest. Very interesting!<br /><br /><b>Misha:</b> Great way to put that! :)Michelle D. Argylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09696465137285587646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-90202447749112399222011-02-04T03:17:05.525-08:002011-02-04T03:17:05.525-08:00I really enjoyed this post.
When it comes to wri...I really enjoyed this post. <br /><br />When it comes to writing, there is one whopper that gets repeated in some form or the other:<br /><br />Follow the rules. <br /><br />Uhm... No... <br /><br />Follow the guidelines for as long as they guide you. If they don't... well then, that's where the fun starts. <br /><br />:-)Misha Gerrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06364173848456424521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-25022015385404639912011-02-03T20:41:54.411-08:002011-02-03T20:41:54.411-08:00Scott,
No need to apologize. It was probably my fa...Scott,<br />No need to apologize. It was probably my fault for providing a url, which is what people do when the spam my blog.<br /><br />I LOVE your list, and am passing the url around to all my writer colleagues. As for Rule #1, I believe you've put it in the right place. What I teach to take its place is "Never write about something you don't CARE about."<br /><br />Violating this rule (guide) leads to the mushiest, flabbiest, most spineless writing you'll ever read.<br /><br />Keep up the great work.Gerald M. Weinberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05902673055244863609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-34005194658039759832011-02-03T18:56:48.522-08:002011-02-03T18:56:48.522-08:00Great post. I agree that "lies" sounds d...Great post. I agree that "lies" sounds dramatic, so I would have said that too. (I wrote a little verse on my blog, saying much the same thing a month or so ago.)<br /><br />But I think we all have to learn these rules so we can break them effectively--and not get intimidated by control freaks who quote them at us all the time.<br /><br />Re #5--I think it's interesting that out of the 1000+ entries in Nathan's first paragraph contest this week, the the writing of the finalists and hon. mentions seemed quiet and un-needy. Most of them didn't scream "hook."Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2092805684169371138.post-91734458136658232612011-02-03T17:07:16.922-08:002011-02-03T17:07:16.922-08:00I love the list! I especially agree with #1. I don...I love the list! I especially agree with #1. I don't know anything about half the things I write and, while that can sometimes complicate things, it's so much more fun!writergal24https://www.blogger.com/profile/10913320014258720896noreply@blogger.com