Friday, February 4, 2011

Friday Filler! This Week's Episode: Bad Advice

Happy Friday, mighty writers! As usual, I am relieved and somewhat amazed to have survived the week. I am also somewhat amazed to be awake just now, as Mighty Reader and I were up late on a school night at the Pacific Northwest Ballet's dress rehearsal of "Cinderella." I've never attended a dress rehearsal of a ballet before and was surprised when, at the end of each act, the dancers would wander back on stage with the director, choreographer, dance coaches and God knows who else to go over anything that seemed a little rough. The children dancers rehearsing their curtain calls and bows was priceless. My point, however, has nothing to do with the cuteness of tiny people dressed as pumpkins and falling onto their backsides in public. No, my point is that I'm a bit tired and drifty so this post is likely to be even more hazy than usual. Good luck.

A couple of weeks ago I got an email from a friend of mine wherein he offered some writing advice. My friend is not a writer, and though I love him like a brother he also doesn't read much in the way of literary fiction. I'd been telling him about my next book project and how the story features a sailing ship. I want to make the ship into an actual character so that when something tragic happens to it, the reader will be sad.

My friend wrote a lengthy bit about that, giving me his best advice. I appreciate the effort and thought that went into it, but gosh, he was really off the mark and I found myself not a little annoyed. Honestly, everything he said was all wrong and I already know how I'm going to present the ship to the reader as a character (anthropomorphism, mostly).

Anyway, it occurs to me that once in a while someone will give me very specific (and usually unsolicited) advice about something I'm writing, and that advice will be so far from useful that it makes me cranky. Because I'm exceedingly self-aware and sensitive (shut up, you), I realize that I've probably given annoying, unsolicited bad advice myself. Heck, I can almost guarantee it, though I have no idea what it is because all my advice sounds to me like the wisdom of Solomon when I hear it coming out of my mouth.

So to anyone to whom I've given bad advice, I offer you my apologies. The more I write, the less comfortable I am telling people how to write. Which, you know, makes it hard to co-author a writing blog. Irony, right?

Also: Happy belated lunar new year! It's the year of the golden rabbit! As a rabbit, I warn you to treat my year well or I shall be very put out.

Also: Go Steelers!

54 comments:

  1. I remember talking about this in an email with you, Scott, and I agree with you that the more I write, the less I feel qualified or comfortable giving advice to anyone about writing. Oftentimes I make it very clear that it's just my own stupid opinion and they can take it or leave it and that I won't be offended.

    You've never given me bad advice. Many things you said about MONARCH were spot-on and have improved the book.

    I will be celebrating Chinese New Year, which happened yesterday, with my extended family tomorrow. I'm really excited. My father-in-law lived in China for two years. He makes the best food. Ever. I can't wait!

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  2. I think anyone can fall into the trap of offering bad advice, especially if we've learned something firsthand that works for us, we might tend to get a little overzealous...

    ...and this isn't advice, per se...but, for what it's worth: 'making the ship into an actual character so that when something tragic happens to it, the reader will be sad' is a great concept, and not a far stretch in my opinion. A sailing vessel does indeed have its own personality, and even relationships, if you will.

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  3. Really? This post ends up being an apology?

    Scott and Michelle, I also think we've forgotten our anniversary somewhere in the mix here. I think it has to do with us being behind on Notes From Underground (to which I apologize to all our contributors). Apologies, apologies for everyone!

    We should do an apology giveaway! Oh, and I'm an earth horse.

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  4. I also have that feeling of not wanting to give writing advice the more I write. "Who am I to tell you how to write?" runs through my head every time I do. I have a long way to go. Your anthropomorphized ship sounds great. There are some in the MG/YA books Here There be Dragons. I loved those ships. They're kind of cool.

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  5. I also have that feeling of not wanting to give writing advice the more I write. "Who am I to tell you how to write?" runs through my head every time I do. I have a long way to go. Your anthropomorphized ship sounds great. There are some in the MG/YA books Here There be Dragons. I loved those ships. They're kind of cool.

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  6. Davin, you and Scott need to get me the final MS. And Tara, I can't wait to see the cover! And everyone else, sorry it's taking so long!

    I'm a monkey, I think.

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  7. The *Steelers*?!!?!???? Are you nuts??!??? YOU LIVE IN SEATTLE!!! WE **HATE** the Steelers here!!! They cheated us out of a Superbowl win!!! The refs even *admitted* it years later!!! WE HATESSSSSSSSSSS THEM!

    In other words, GO PACKERS!!!

    Oh, and yeah, I've given bad writing advice, too.

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  8. I love it when people who don't read much give writing advice. I won't elborate on that.

    However, on your ship as a character idea, I love it. Probably the best work I have ever read using that sort of model was The Last Witchfinder by James Morrow, which is a historical literary fiction piece narrated in first person by the main character's most beloved book. And the way the story shifted from the book's first person narrative to the main third person narrative of the story was just brilliant. So go for it.

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  9. Big D: This post was just an excuse to say "all my advice sounds like the wisdom of Solomon when I hear it coming out of my mouth." That sort of pronouncement makes me giggle like a wee schoolgirl. Also an opportunity to vent about my friend's bad advice (because I'm not going to tell him that he needs to just leave the writing to the writers).

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  10. On a more serious note, I have been wondering lately if this "silent respect" is such a good idea. You know I've been feeling the same way, and my criticisms on the net and in my writer's group have gone way down. But, with regard to my own writing it actually feels like it's dead because no one says anything about it.

    What's better, when no one says anything at all about your writing, or when people criticize it?

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  11. Scott, that made me giggle like a wee schoolgirl.

    I hope you friend doesn't read our blog...

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  12. Alex: I'm not from Seattle, so what do I care about your grudge against the noble warriors of Pittsburgh? The Seahawks didn't even exist during my youth when I was a Steelers fan. In my world, they're not a real team.

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  13. Davin: That's a valid thing to wonder about. I think it's important to voice our advice in the right way and to make it clear that the writer does not have to take it and that we won't be offended if they don't. Even if it makes me uncomfortable and I feel unqualified, I certainly tell people what I think of their work if they ask for it. Sometimes, though, I really don't have much to say except positive things.

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  14. Domey: Well, yeah, there's that too. But if someone asks me for my criticism of their writing, they get what they get which is blunt commentary. Ask Rick Daley; I was awfully obnoxious with him though he's been a gentleman about it. My favorite thing to scribble in other people's margins is "You're kidding me, right?"

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  15. I'm not just trying to stir up trouble, but I've seriously been considering becoming the Simon Cowell of the Literary Lab. It can be rude, but I think there's some validity to that point of view. Yes, it should always be accepted, however, that my opinion is just my opinion.

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  16. Davin, if you want to be that way, no one is stopping you. The thing is, when your opinion is highly respected, you can get away with more. I think yours is highly respected. So is Scott's. I can't say anything about mine.

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  17. Davin, sometimes I think there's a lot to be said for speaking authoritatively, unapologetically. Sometimes there's a lot of value in having an argument. And sometimes people just say things that are clearly wrong and they need to be straightened out. In public.

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  18. I'm a Snake! Go Figure! It would explain so much . . . at least from my sisters perspectives! HA!

    S

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  19. Very, very true Scott. Being a jerk is being a jerk, and people will see right through it.

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  20. Michelle, people listen to you because you're wise and you're a nice person. "Bailey," they say, "Is just a big blowhard and a meanie. That Malasarn, though: he's a handsome fellow. We like him. Is he a writer, too?"

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  21. Scott, you are anything but a meanie. I promise.

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  22. It's the unsolicited advice that hits me hardest, because I don't have my deflector shields up and I'm usually expecting polite praise.

    The unsolicited kind also tends to be the most clueless. I'm sure one of JK Rowling's friends told her that her book was unpublishable because broomsticks can't fly.

    I agree with Cheryl that the people who don't actually read books are often the most anxious to rewrite ours. I think it's because they have fantasies of becoming writers, but don't want to be bothered with actually putting the words down on paper. So they find fault with yours.

    That's not the same as asking a writer friend for a critique. It may be just as off base, but when you ask for a critique, you're expecting a little negative feedback and know how to deal with it.

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  23. @Domey - There's a difference, too, between giving advice from a position of presumed wisdom and just offering your feedback and ideas.

    There's also a responsibility on the part of the person receiving the advice to know how to respond to the particular person giving it.

    For example, something like this:

    Domey will give you things he wants you to think about, problems to wrestle with, puzzles to solve. Michelle will give tell you what she thinks works and what doesn't, but she might not want you to act solely on her recommendation, but to incorporate her thoughts into yours. Scott will just tell you flat-out that some's garbage or that something is good, and he will believe what says, but he will also know it's up to you to sink or swim on your own.

    Stuff like that.

    You can't approach every person giving advice the same way, and the people giving the advice shouldn't have the responsibility to make sure everyone else gets that.

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  24. "You can't approach every person giving advice the same way, and the people giving the advice shouldn't have the responsibility to make sure everyone else gets that. "

    I support this!

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  25. Yes, Nevets, I can't wait to get your feedback on Bread.

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  26. For New Years' we have resolutions and a year to break them. Are you guys starting to start a Lunar New Year apology list?

    Scott, now that you have brought it up, I've been meaning to give you some bad advice. Imagine a world with flying vampire eels. They could stow away on your silly little boat and cause some real havoc for a change.

    ::: puts bullet-proof vest on.

    Did I mention what an amazing writer you are? :)

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  27. Charlie, I think all of Scott's books are just building blocks for the final sci-fi trendy standoff, just like you describe. I can't wait!

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  28. @Michelle - I must have gotten my brain sleep last night.

    @Domey - I should have that ready for you any day now.

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  29. Domey: Simon Cowell was the only reason anyone ever watched "American Idol". Go for it!

    Scott: Talk to me again when baseball starts. The Phillies rule. Football sucks, much like the Seachickens.

    Bad advice: Most of the bad advice I've gotten came from people who didn't read a lot. A family member once told me to give up writing because I had no luck selling a mystery novel - she said, "If you can't sell it, it must not be any good."

    I decided not to take her advice.

    I once gave a good friend bad writing advice and now she is kind enough not to let me see her first drafts. I appreciate that no end and it's probably the best way for us to stay good friends.

    -Alex MacKenzie

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  30. "Imagine a world with flying vampire eels." I do that every night. Every damned night. It's why I never sleep.

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  31. Everyone gives or gets bad advice at one time or another. You just have to let it roll off your back. ;) You got one thing right, though, Go Steelers!!

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  32. I know exactly what you mean - both on the giving of advice I feel less and less qualified to do (which naturally doesn't stop me) and the receiving of advice that goes against what I'm just sure is true. What I try very, very hard to do is not to completely ignore the "bad" advice, but try to listen very hard to what problem the advice-giver is identifying for me. They think they're telling me how to fix it, but what they're really telling me is what is wrong...for them. Then I try to see how I can do that bit better...for everyone. :)

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  33. Susan, that's how I deal with most advice too.

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  34. Scott- In your defense, you did put "Snark by Scott Bailey" on the cover page under my name, so I knew what to expect.

    Some of your comments made me cringe, and others made me laugh out loud, even if I didn't agree with them. Most of the feedback was spot-on, though, and it helped me in my revisions.

    But a critique is not the same as a review. A critique is private; a review is public. When I asked Scott to critique my middle-grade novel, I knew I was going to get a very different perspective from the middle-grade authors (and readers) who also provided feedback. But that diversity of opinion is necessary, and it provided insights that other readers missed.

    And always remember...just because someone gave you advice, it doesn't mean you have to take it. If you receive bad advice from someone whose advice you openly solicited, don't bitch/complain/whine/moan. You asked for it in the first place.

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  35. Are we talking about the Endurance or a fictional anthropomorphized ship? (I think a novel about with Endurance as a character would be pretty cool.)

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  36. Just a quick reply for Domey first here (hope that I didn't miss too many replies that already said this same thing I'm in a rush today...)

    I don't think either could be better- silence, or the critisism. I think though that the worst part about hearing only crickets in response to our writing is that we either have to worry no one even bothered to read it or that it was SO bad they are at a complete loss for words. Then again, scalding negatives hurt...I guess it's all in how the critique is offered.

    So I don't know. Not helpful, sorry *laugh* just wanted to say Happy Friday anyway!

    Scott, I agree that advice esp. from non-writers makes me cranky. Advice in general makes me cranky because most of the time people don't have the whole picture/all the info they'd need to offer any really helpful advice that's unsolicited. And usually it's the most unsolicited advice that is the most annoying!

    Michelle- that post on the 'lies' was killer btw...loved it.

    ~bru

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  37. Jabez: Based loosely on the Endurance, but not the Endurance.

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  38. I don't think I've ever actually recieved bad advice. The only people that I shared my first draft with were - purposely - people who I knew would kind of sugar coat their reviews. Soon I'll give it to someone who will give me some actual feedback though.

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  39. Wait--you're from here in Seattle and you like the Steelers? Booo!

    Scott, I think your advice is great and you offer a different perspective than most people. I think we writers are all part of a community of thought and we really need to share.
    I know not every piece of advice I share with other writers either works for them or is even applicable to their story. I've completely pulled back on any "you should do it this way" kind of stuff (vs "have you ever considered") because 90% of the time that kind of advice is useless.
    One thing I got out of the WDC conference is that "reading and writing are the same, like talking and listening." Taking it a step further, I think talking about writing with fellow writers is even more important, because you never know what you might learn.
    So keep up the advice, don't be afraid of "bad advice" because there really isn't any if your advice is an honest opinion (and presented as an opinion).

    I've followed plenty of advice that turned out to be bad, but I would never have known if I had not tried it. The bad advice washes off after a while, the good advice sticks around forever.

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  40. Andrew: I'm not from here, I just live here. Go Steelers! But, really, I'm more a baseball fan. The Superbowl is the only football game I'll watch all year, and some years I don't even watch it.

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  41. "I've followed plenty of advice that turned out to be bad, but I would never have known if I had not tried it. The bad advice washes off after a while, the good advice sticks around forever. "

    I wholeheartedly agree with this.

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  42. Opinion? I present all of my advice as cold, hard fact, handed down to me from the gods. Which it is. Really. And then I woke up.

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  43. I'm even okay with presenting things as facts. It takes too long to qualify everything.

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  44. Um...in this case. Not in my scientific work.

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  45. :)

    @Domey: you made my day.

    @Scott: You need to write a writing book. "The X Commandments of Writing" ;)

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  46. I'm with you, the more I write the less I offer advice on how to do it. And I love that the ship in your WIP will have characteristics that will make me love it. Brilliant. #GoSteelers

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  47. Cheryl Anne Gardner's comment has been working at my mind all day. I wonder if I will have a section where the ship is speaking to the reader in first person? Hmm. That's almost like something out of Melville, so it appeals to me. Hmm, I say.

    Jabez, yeah, the book is very loosely based on the 1914 Shackleton expedition, but there will be stuff about race/class divisions in New York at that time, and stuff about growing older (a subject of which I am becoming a reluctant expert), and stuff about friendship and loyalty (the usual suspects in my books) and stuff about how, in truth, the Antarctic is ablaze with color and not all just white and gray and stuff. Also, whales and penguins! American entrepeneurship! Vainglory! Love! Jealousy! Murder! Madness! Drinking and dancing and baseball! Did I mention penguins? Because penguins rock.

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  48. Scott, you can make anything ablaze with excitement, I'm absolutely convinced.

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  49. Hey, rabbit (I'm a rat LOL), I think we've all done the Give Bad Advice bit. I certainly have, and cringe to think of it. Just trying to be helpful, but I'm sure it didn't come across that way. The more we learn, though, the better advice we can give. :)

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  50. You are forgiven Scott - if you ever give bad advice. I'm in the habit of collecting opinions from writers I respect - yes, even aspiring writers - because you never know when the advice will come in handy.

    May not be useful at the moment it is given, but, things change. My writing style/objectives among them. And as the three of you note in your comments here, your opinions are your opinions. I like the "you're kidding me, right" type comments I see from my own crit partners.

    @Domey; keep faith in your own ability to give constructive feedback. If it is meant in the spirit of bettering the story, then it is up to the writer to determine how useful it is. You have a lot to offer the writing community, in my opinion. When I first started following the Lab (I think I'm following, I better check) it was your unique voice that kept me coming back long enough to enjoy Michelle and Scott alo.

    Scott; I love the idea of a ship as a character. Actually, I think any object a person cares about enough to name is a sort of character. You get a sense of the personality through the owner's (in this case I imagine the ship's captain) interaction with the object.

    I enjoyed your discussion at Andrew's today - it made me think really hard about conflict. Something I struggle with.

    My son is a devout Steelers fan; but I like the colors the Packers wear :)

    @Michelle; I read your Lies post today and I enjoyed it immensely. Shares a lot of my own sentiments. *stares at your forehead looking for a third eye* I think I get bogged down in the writing rules sometimes, and that really makes it hard to just write a good story. I appreciated your thoughts on the matter. A timely post for me.

    ........dhole

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